About Milwaukee (West Allis, Oconomowoc, Baldwin: felons, employment, neighborhood)

[Nuclear_Art]

Originally Posted by brewtown12

yes but the amount of blacks(and latinos) in poverty,percentage wise,is much,much higher then the amount of whites.Thus making your comment,which seems to pretend that ''all is equal'' inaccurate and ignorant.

I applaud your diligence in digging up all these stats but you still are confusing Milwaukee with Metro Milwaukee. Many of these stats talk about the metro area which does not fit into this argument. Milwaukee is a city and regardless of stats does not include suburbs. In the context of the city itself these statistics are horribly misleading.

[EnjoyEP]

Comeon...seriously here...so it is "bad race relations" if a high percentage of blacks make up the prison population and/or are unemployed?? That has nothing to do with "race relations" - 2 seperate issues.

Guys with education (even just a publicly-funded high school education with some motivation) - black, white, Latino, or other - can, will, and do get jobs.

Guys that stay away from crime - regardless of race - can, will, and do stay out of prison.

There are large quantities of black leaders in Milwaukee that are in their positions professionally - who have never stepped foot in a jail/prison - because they did it the "right way"...they didn't use some excuse to hold them back. Again though, that issue should not be confused with "race relations."

[brewtown12]

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

Comeon...seriously here...so it is "bad race relations" if a high percentage of blacks make up the prison population and/or are unemployed?? That has nothing to do with "race relations" - 2 seperate issues.

Yes it is bad race relations.Unless,you believe that the high unemployment rate is because blacks are ''lazy and dont want to work'' and that the extreme,insane ratio of the black population in prison is because blacks are ''naturally more prone to crime''.Which many whites do(racists).The high unemployment rate amongst blacks is fueled by racial prejudice/discrimination.The hugh black incarcaration rate is also tied in with this,and the fact that blacks are judged harsher in this ''justice'' system''.

Guys with education (even just a publicly-funded high school education with some motivation) - black, white, Latino, or other - can, will, and do get jobs.


Not true.Again,MOST blacks would agree.Many whites have a habbit of ''knowing'' blacks situation better than we do.Its just not true that the labor market is anywhere near non bias in this city.which is why many educated blacks leave the city.Good jobs,are for the most part reserved for whites.I have an uncle who retired from the military and moved to Milwaukee with that gong ho attitude of employers not being racist.No criminal record,the guy doesnt even smoke cigerettes or a drop of alchohol.Well, as I told him,in Milwaukee your skin color is the most important thing to employers.He doubted it,but Milwaukee showed him the truth.

'' they emailed me and said they liked my resume and wanted to speak to me,but when I do I never hear from them again''.Over and over again.

By his own admission,he has been all over the world and the only place he has never felt welcome is here-Milwaukee,wisconsin.This coming from a man who helped defend this country.

This is just one of countless tales I could tell you.I assure you the only ones who pretend that race is not a big factor here are whites themselves,and a few blacks who are more concerned with appealing to whites than thier own people.Look at the comments by blacks who have lived in Milwaukee on this website.You have to be a nut if you dont think majority unemployment,mass incarcaration,and widespread discrimination in jobs and housing,and a black/white income disparity of over 50% does not prove bad race relations.

BTW,those politicains/proffesional blacks you mention know very well how racist this city is.And not just Michael Mcgee either.Qoutes regrading Milwaukee/Wisconsins unjust racial disparities from everyone from Gwen Moore,Lenard Wells,Lena Taylor,etc can easily be found.

''Committee members state Rep. Tamara Grigsby (D-Milwaukee), state Sen. Lena Taylor (D-Milwaukee) and Vicki Washington, from the UW System's office of academic diversity and development, spoke out against Connerly. They argued that affirmative action is still needed to undo the damage of racial segregation.

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The study demonstrates the increased odds black male ex-offenders face in finding employment and successfully reintegrating into the economic mainstream,
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[brewtown12]

Originally Posted by Nuclear_Art

I applaud your diligence in digging up all these stats but you still are confusing Milwaukee with Metro Milwaukee. Many of these stats talk about the metro area which does not fit into this argument. Milwaukee is a city and regardless of stats does not include suburbs. In the context of the city itself these statistics are horribly misleading.

Its horribly misleading to believe that there arent huge disparities from blacks and whites in Milwaukee,and that the city is well intergrated.The suburb/city arguement is flawed because for the most part milwaukee's suburbs are white,the whites who live in milwaukee enjoy superior housing and jobs prospects,and the blacks live in segragated areas,where unemployment is high.Thats not racial harmony.

[Nuclear_Art]

Originally Posted by brewtown12

Its horribly misleading to believe that there arent huge disparities from blacks and whites in Milwaukee,and that the city is well intergrated.The suburb/city arguement is flawed because for the most part milwaukee's suburbs are white,the whites who live in milwaukee enjoy superior housing and jobs prospects,and the blacks live in segragated areas,where unemployment is high.Thats not racial harmony.

Your opinions are valid.

[brewtown12]

Originally Posted by Nuclear_Art

Your opinions are valid.

I guarentee if it were whites facing these insane disparities,the problem wouldnt be swept under the table,and the complaints of most of a race,including black police officers and politicians(once again,on any given day,most blacks in wisconsin would agree that the city/state is racist,there are several black wisconsites and milwaukeeans on this site,ask them),along with studies conducted by college proffessors and sociologists wouldnt be considered ''opinions''(These are facts,facts that are destroying lives,families and communities).There would be mass action to correct these problems,just as it was during the ''great depression''(interesting note:Milwaukee's current black male unemployment rate is 3 times the national average during that time).White wisconsin has a disturbing stance when it comes to black lives.Apparently,if the black male jobless rate jumped from its current 60% to 100%,and the black prison population jumped from its current 45% to 80%,whites still wouldnt see that ''hey,something is seriously wrong here''.Seemingly no amount of data will get these people to see just how racist this city/state is.


btw,white male unemployment in the state is less than 5%,and blacks are locked up at a rate of more than 11x thier white counterparts.But to people like nuclear,there is no disparity and everything is equal.

[Milwaukee Ronnie]

Obviously there are enormous disparities. The statistics bear this out, and the reality on the ground bear out the reality of the statistics. I do think there are changes happening in this city, however, and I stand by my assertion that in some ways race relations in this city have gotten better.

For one thing, we are talking about the problem now more openly than ever before. I was discouraged and disgusted by the beating of Frank Jude, and I was horrified by the ineptitude of the county prosecutors to put a viable case together that would put these thugs in blue behind bars. But I was encouraged by the reaction to the beating and the verdict in the larger community. EVERYONE in this city knew the initial verdict was BS, EVERYONE knew and agreed it was about race, not even the right wing wingnuts on AM radio were able to claim otherwise. And the Feds were able to cut through the "wall of silence" and now these thugs will pay. And EVERYONE is happy that they're getting their due. And, nearly EVERYONE would agree that the Jude case was hardly an isolated incident of blatent racism in the Milwaukee Police Department.

My point here is twenty years ago, things like this happened and no one was ever held accountable. Now the population at large, Black and White, demands that they are. Look on the front page of the newspaper on any given day and you'll read about the educational and economic disparity in our city. We're talking about it. The problem is we don't know what to do about it. We could demand that our politicians do something about it, but EVERYONE (Black and White) has pretty much given up on the ability of our political system to competently address ANY problem, no matter how big or how small. We can't even trust our leaders to make sure that freeway bridges remain standing, how can we entrust them to solve a problem as fundamental to America as racial disparities?

I happen to live in one of those aforementioned areas (Sherman Park) where successful middle class Blacks reside. So I know firsthand that there are Black people in this city who are doing well. But I've got people on my block that are barely scraping two pennies together and can hardly make rent, to say nothing of mortgage payments. What can I, as an individual white guy myself trying to make it along with everyone else, what can I do to help solve the problem?

If I had a magic wand I would eliminate the so-called "war on drugs" and make sure that there are more white suburban kids in jail for coke and heroin as there are young Black men for pot. If I could wave a magic wand, every kid would walk into a great school every day, free of baggage and other "stuff" ready to learn. I would give every person the ability to find a job, and the ability to hang onto it and use it to grow financially from it.

I do not have this magic wand. So what do I do?

[brewtown12]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee Ronnie

Obviously there are enormous disparities. The statistics bear this out, and the reality on the ground bear out the reality of the statistics. I do think there are changes happening in this city, however, and I stand by my assertion that in some ways race relations in this city have gotten better.

For one thing, we are talking about the problem now more openly than ever before. I was discouraged and disgusted by the beating of Frank Jude, and I was horrified by the ineptitude of the county prosecutors to put a viable case together that would put these thugs in blue behind bars. But I was encouraged by the reaction to the beating and the verdict in the larger community. EVERYONE in this city knew the initial verdict was BS, EVERYONE knew and agreed it was about race, not even the right wing wingnuts on AM radio were able to claim otherwise. And the Feds were able to cut through the "wall of silence" and now these thugs will pay. And EVERYONE is happy that they're getting their due. And, nearly EVERYONE would agree that the Jude case was hardly an isolated incident of blatent racism in the Milwaukee Police Department.

My point here is twenty years ago, things like this happened and no one was ever held accountable. Now the population at large, Black and White, demands that they are. Look on the front page of the newspaper on any given day and you'll read about the educational and economic disparity in our city. We're talking about it. The problem is we don't know what to do about it. We could demand that our politicians do something about it, but EVERYONE (Black and White) has pretty much given up on the ability of our political system to competently address ANY problem, no matter how big or how small. We can't even trust our leaders to make sure that freeway bridges remain standing, how can we entrust them to solve a problem as fundamental to America as racial disparities?

I happen to live in one of those aforementioned areas (Sherman Park) where successful middle class Blacks reside. So I know firsthand that there are Black people in this city who are doing well. But I've got people on my block that are barely scraping two pennies together and can hardly make rent, to say nothing of mortgage payments. What can I, as an individual white guy myself trying to make it along with everyone else, what can I do to help solve the problem?

If I had a magic wand I would eliminate the so-called "war on drugs" and make sure that there are more white suburban kids in jail for coke and heroin as there are young Black men for pot. If I could wave a magic wand, every kid would walk into a great school every day, free of baggage and other "stuff" ready to learn. I would give every person the ability to find a job, and the ability to hang onto it and use it to grow financially from it.

I do not have this magic wand. So what do I do?

Youre a sane person who realizes the problem,and I applaud you for that.Most whites seem stuck on doubting these huge disparities.Unfort.,for every Ronnie(who at least acknowledges the huge disparities,and that racism is a factor in these disparities)we have at least 10 nuclear_arts or enjoyeps in society
(who ignore the disparities,or pretend that racism plays no part in them,and blacks simply choose mass joblessness and imprisonment).


What can be done?

Studies such as the one done by Devah Pager should be conducted by governmental agencies(the department of labor,etc),and companies that have shown to discriminate against black applicants should be penalized.Everyone who wants to work should be given a fair chance to take care of themselves and thier families.


I believe that no white judge or jury can offer a black person a truely just and fair verdict.Therefore,I believe all black offenders should face a true jury of his/her peers,and that they should also face black judges.Since this is the community where the drugs are being sold,and overwhelmingly,the victims of black crimes are black,we should decide the fate of these people.

If the person is facing charges for a non violent drug offense,in some cases job training and placement should be an alternative to prison time.Its just not fair to have blacks get treated unjustly in the labor market and then expect them to somehow make it within the guidelines of the law,and then bring down the pound on them if they go outside the law.Theres no way that white criminals should have an easier time getting employed than an equally qualified black man with no record.That insanely racist and oppressive towards blacks.


If we are going to enforce drug laws,then we also need to enforce the civil rights acts.And I dont mean the isolated incidents when you can 'prove' someone did a racist act,I mean the countless times where blacks just dont recieve callbacks or interviews,simply because they are black.

Truancy from school should also have a greater penalty,and I believe that a standard school uniform should be enforced for all MPS schools.Way too many kids dont feel comfortable in school because they have insuffient clothing (poverty),and other issues that would be cut down if everyone had to wear the same thing.There should be more job training at the high school level (carpentry shops,welding shops,barber training,etc) so that black students,esp males,who will without a doubt,and through no fault of thier own,find it much harder to find employment than thier white counterparts,can be better equiped to find a job,or support themselves in a manner that is not harmful to themselves or the community at large.

Those who do graduate high school should have some reasonable chance at finding employment.As it stands thats not the case,the job situation is just ridiculous for blacks here.We are somehow expected to live crime free wholesome lives in a capitalist society where many of are blocked from capital.



More blacks need to work on starting businesses so that we can employ our own.We also need to start spending our dollars with each other instead of with companies that dont give us equallity when we apply to work for them.way to many blacks get educated simply to go to some company and get a job,where they will without doubt face the glass ceilling.



I dont have all the anwsers.These are just some of the things that I think would help curb the problem.Tax payers spend about 30,000 per year for an inmate to be held in prison,there certainily is a way we can get these inmate to making 30,000 per year through a job,and being productive members of society.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by brewtown12

Youre a sane person who realizes the problem,and I applaud you for that.Most whites seem stuck on doubting these huge disparities.Unfort.,for every Ronnie(who at least acknowledges the huge disparities,and that racism is a factor in these disparities)we have at least 10 nuclear_arts or enjoyeps in society

And for every Ronnie, we get 10 brewtown12s with their victim mentalities, not considering any aspects of personal responsibility (high school drop out rates, single mother pregnancy rates, gangster mentalities leading to crime instead of education).

I am done with this thread. It is hard to debate logically with a person who just chalks up all problems to "racism". Look, we all are born with our challenges - most of us anyway. In many facets, being a white male poses significant obstacles in the year 2007, not allowing for the benefits or opportunities afforded to females, minorities, etc. Are there racist jerks out there? Yep. Do they still pose obstacles to success? Yep. Those folks come in each and every color and creed.

I laugh at the notion brewcity12 notes that white people think they understand black folks more than black folks themselves. Well, brewcity, I think it is fair to say then you are doing the same thing with white folks. Hypocrisy in its purest form.

As Bill Cosby would allude to, a victim's mentality is one of the worst you can have...

It's funny. I work in Downtown Milwaukee and today was outdoors enjoying a gorgeous 80 degree day in the heart of Downtown. Passed an inordinate amount of black folks dressed in business atire, going to and fro their jobs, looking as successful as any of us (probably moreso!). I would guess that instead of sitting in and contemplating how racism is holding them back, they instead did what the rest of us have to do - got educated, stayed out of trouble, worked hard, and fought for a job.

But to further debate a guy (gal?) like this is moot...he's (she's) got the mind made up and nothing more will change it, preferring to dwell on the negative/the hateful, the fringes of society rather than where we truly are in 2007.

[kbleeke]

brewtown12 does have some good points

the blacks need to start businesses within their neighborhoods instead of white owners(who dont want to hire blacks)

MPS is to blame a lot for the blacks problems in the city. no one will be able to get out the the bad neighborhoods in the inner city if there is a bad schools

i read many people on this thread(that are probly white and from the suburbs) that just dont understand the other point of view and politics. brewtown12 knows both parts from being a succesful black and probaly works with suburbanites, but also probaly grew up in a poor neighborhood.
the other people have only seen the view from outside, in the suburbs.

i live in washington park and am white, so i can see both points of views