Racial Tensions in Milwaukee? (Waukesha, Mequon: middle-class, sale, real estate)

[illwauk]

Originally Posted by mrkool

Violent crime on the (mostly black) northside of Milwaukee is even worse than usual right now. Last night was the warmest most pleasant night we've had for a while, and the thugs in that area used it to perpetrate a higher-than-normal number of murders, carjackings, etc.
A city councilman has had enough, and is asking for the deployment of a few dozen National Guard military police to bolster the efforts of Milwaukee Police Dept in getting a handle on this crap.
How sad to think that some years back, the northside was a safe and civil area of well-kept homes and mostly German families. What an embarrassment it has become.

That's nice... now let's hear from someone who isn't so pathetically racist...

[south-to-west]

EnjoyEP,

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you personally. You are very correct in a lot of your statements in your last post. The only thing that I can tell you about crime is that there is a direct relation between crime and local economy. When people have no jobs or minimum-wage-paying jobs, then an atmosphere of desperation is created. Milwaukee has got to figure out how to boost its economy and attract talent from elsewhere.

Also, people have to take a stand and not tolerate the violence that is occurring in Milwaukee. For example, people stopped going to Northridge because of exaggerated stories of rowdy youth's causing trouble. Was there trouble? Yes. Was it really that dangerous? No. People have to take back there streets and neighborhoods and hold the local authorities accountable for maintaining a safe and productive environment.

[Northsider414]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

I haven't lived in Milwaukee in a dozen years, but I thought I'd stop by to see what others are saying about my hometown.

The Black Pages have nothing to do with racial tensions. It's no different than a Spanish-language periodical advertising Latino businesses. In the city where I currently live, the Brazilian immigrant community has the Brazil Pages which is the same thing. It provides people an opportunity to network and offers people of color the opportunity to advertise. If you want to create a White Pages, go ahead. It doesn't make sense really since many communities in Milwaukee have historically had their own publications like the Germans and Italians.

I think everyone on this board has touched on the various reasons for racial tension--self segregation, discrimination, stereotyping, etc. Being black and raised in suburban Mequon myself, I've seen this first hand. I would also add the bad economy and the provincial nature of Milwaukee as contributing factors also. Communities fall apart at every seem when jobs are lost, which has been a continuing pattern in Milwaukee over the past couple of decades--especially manufacturing. The provincial nature of Milwaukee results from the fact that relatively few people from other regions of the country and world move to Milwaukee, thus creating a stagnant atmosphere due to a lack of fresh new ideas and attitudes.

Things are getting better, but I don't believe that needed change is occurring quickly enough.

That's not just a problem with Milwaukee though... that's every major northern city not named "New York." Unfortunatley, one thing none of these cities can change is the weather... and other than the Twin Cities, Milwaukee has the coldest climate of all major cities.

I also agree with what you say about the economy, but again, that's a problem that's not limited to Milwaukee. This is a country that allows corporations to do whatever they want without having to take any responsibility. That includes putting americans out of work if they can get a Taiwanese girl to do the same job for 3 cents an hour (funny how it's the people who are the first ones to wave flags and talk about how "patriotic" they are who support this). If anything is gonna save Milwaukee's economy, it has to come from a grass-roots level like in the days of the sewer socialists... nothing from the outside is going to come in and save us.

I think the biggest problems with Milwaukee is that most of the "shots" are called by people who don't live in the city and have only care about how much money they can make by sponging off it (i.e. Scott Walker and his sockpuppets in the County Government).

Then you have a city run by white-collar Democrats like Tom Barrett who are so ridiculously out of touch with what is a predominantly working-class minority city. You can claim to be liberal all you want, but when you support public finding for projects like Pabst City, yet veto the funding of a light rail system, your actions speak otherwise.

Unfortunatley, no one in out local media (other than a few community based weekly newspapers) is calling our so-called leaders out for this. I haven't bought the Journal-Sentinel since 2004 when they ran that smear campagin against Marvin Pratt. Was he the ideal Mayor for Milwaukee? Probably not... but he actually CARED about the city and its people. We hadn't had a mayor like that since Frank Ziedler. But I have a feeling the crap Barrett's being pulling is gonna blow up in his face come time for re-election.

In the short run, Milwaukee can try to regain control of itself by becoming an "independent city" like Baltimore meaning Milwaukee City and Milwaukee County would be completely exclusive of one-another.

Originally Posted by mrkool

Violent crime on the (mostly black) northside of Milwaukee is even worse than usual right now. Last night was the warmest most pleasant night we've had for a while, and the thugs in that area used it to perpetrate a higher-than-normal number of murders, carjackings, etc.
A city councilman has had enough, and is asking for the deployment of a few dozen National Guard military police to bolster the efforts of Milwaukee Police Dept in getting a handle on this crap.
How sad to think that some years back, the northside was a safe and civil area of well-kept homes and mostly German families. What an embarrassment it has become.

It's extremely telling that I (illwauk) can get termed simply because I have an opinion that ruffles the feathers of a few privleged white men in the suburbs, yet this poster can make balatantly racist statements like this and still keep his account... un-****in'-believable.

It's clear that only the "right" kind of opinions are allowed here (pun-intended), so I no longer want anything to do with this racist, classist, white-anglo-centric forum. Besides, I've grown tired of hyping up all the great things about Milwaukee when they're all CLEARLY over the heads of the majority of members in this forum. Not surprisingly most of them come from the suburbs where anything truly progressive is dismissed as "commie-talk" or "helping the terrorists win."

But before I go... I just want to address one comment I saw about Milwaukee not being able to be what it is without the suburbs. Basically, Milwaukee was founded as a way to ship grain grown in the west out to eastern cities. Brookfield, mequon, Waukesha, Tosa, etc... they were all founded for no other reason to deliberatley exclude people. So basically, you're right when you say Milwaukee wouldn't be what it is without its suburbs... it would actually have the money to take up the progressive initiatives it wants to instead of being economically raped by people who want to work in the city, but live and spend their money elsewhere.

[mdkkr]

You'll be back, dude - if only to read.

There's no proof the guy you noted was racist. I think he was calling the people commiting the crimes thugs, which is not exactly an unusual moniker for criminals. If he said "all blacks are thugs", you'd have a stronger case.

You sound like a very young guy, with a high i.q., though I think a little misdirected in perceptions and too high in resentment.

Hope you come back when you turn 30 and let us know how you are feeling then.

Good luck!

[south-to-west]

I agree with Northside414. Mrkool was making valid points until he mentioned the good old days when it was a mostly German neighborhood, which implies that there is a correlation between being black and the propensity to commit crime. He may have not intended to convey that message, but its rather subliminal tone is noticable.

[mdkkr]

I respectfully disagree. It's hard to be a mind reader and to call someone a racist based on what is your assumption is a little severe.

Dealing strictly in logic, since I do not know the neighborhood, was it a nicer place or safer place when it was predominantly German?

Is the National Guard really going there?

It must be pretty bad if you need the National Guard there. Was the National Guard ever used while it was a predominantly German neighborhood?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, but as an outsider looking in, it seems the conclusions Mrkool has drawn are not racist, but factual, is the premises are accurate.

If that is the case, there is no evidence Mrkool has made any generalization in a negative way towards the entire black race.

[south-to-west]

How sad to think that some years back, the northside was a safe and civil area of well-kept homes and mostly German families. What an embarrassment it has become.

mdkkr,

Read the above statement by mrkool. He is clearly making a link between "safe, civil, and well-kept" with being German. It's a clear implication. I'm a Milwaukee native and I know exactly what he's implying. Maybe mrkool has black friends and even black family members, but the statment itself definitely has a racial dynamic in it that is hard to ignore.

[mrkool]

- illwauk cannot intelligently argue any of my points, so he/she resorts to the old "racist" smear.

- Northsider414 is far too sensitive and emotional to participate in a forum such as this. By the way, the moderators apparently haven't pulled my account (as you would like) because they actually believe in freedom of speech, differing opinions, and the spirited debate that sometimes ensues here. All I post is the truth. You can't handle it. Goodbye.

-south-to-west has class... maybe doesn't like some of my "implications" or comments, but is respectful about it, and is a thinker rather than a name-caller.

-mdkkr and I are on the same sheet of music. We know the score here in Mil-town, and are not afraid to say it.

And the moderators of these forums are very good. Fair and open-minded to all views.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

EnjoyEP,

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you personally. You are very correct in a lot of your statements in your last post. The only thing that I can tell you about crime is that there is a direct relation between crime and local economy. When people have no jobs or minimum-wage-paying jobs, then an atmosphere of desperation is created. Milwaukee has got to figure out how to boost its economy and attract talent from elsewhere.

Also, people have to take a stand and not tolerate the violence that is occurring in Milwaukee. For example, people stopped going to Northridge because of exaggerated stories of rowdy youth's causing trouble. Was there trouble? Yes. Was it really that dangerous? No. People have to take back there streets and neighborhoods and hold the local authorities accountable for maintaining a safe and productive environment.

Hey south-to-west -

Thanks for the clarification...maybe I was a bit on edge given the ultra-argumentative nature of another poster that was really getting my goat!

While we probably disagree on a few items as it relates to race-relations, etc., in Milwaukee, surely we agree on many others, and I think even in the items we disagree on, we are able to debate/discuss them in a civilized, calm, rational manner, and that is what is truly important - thanks for the perspectives!

To a certain extent, I agree that there is a correlation between crime and the local economy. However, let me respectfully just add my two cents to some of your thoughts -

Originally Posted by south-to-west

The only thing that I can tell you about crime is that there is a direct relation between crime and local economy. When people have no jobs or minimum-wage-paying jobs, then an atmosphere of desperation is created.

As I just stated, I agree with you here to a certain extent. However, ultimately I feel it is incumbant upon citizens - regardless of ethnicity, color, or creed - to take it upon themselves to a) not behave in a criminal manner regardless of financial status (easier said than done I cede) and b) do whatever it takes - legally - to improve one's financial status if it needs to be improved.

For instance...as my user name suggests...I greatly enjoy El Paso, TX. While I live currently in Albuquerque, NM, I visit El Paso often and wouldn't mind living there. El Paso is full of low-income, minimum-wage jobs, and those jobs are very high in comparison to most other cities of its size. There are not a huge number of high paying jobs in El Paso in comparison to similar sized cities. Essentially, compared to other big cities, the El Paso job market is not great.

However, statistically El Paso year-in and year-out is one of the safest cities in the nations in terms of all crime, including violent crime. And being a border city, they have the issue of perhaps some crime "spilling over" from a foreign country. Yet, overall, crime is very low in EP, despite the low wages and some unemployment. And, I should mention, El Paso is another minority-majority city, where folks of Hispanic decent make for 66% of the population.

So while I do agree with you to a certain extent, depending upon a city's culture and people's value-sets, they are indeed able to overcome if you will if they desire and strive, without resorting to criminal behavior.

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Milwaukee has got to figure out how to boost its economy and attract talent from elsewhere.

I agree with this as well.

However, I feel this is a "cart or horse" situation. I feel that the people need to take the initiative - regardless of race, creed, financial status, etc. - to drive this. They keep electing politicians which drive taxes sky high - the area has some of the highest taxes in the U.S. besides East Coast areas - and that is just a huge turn-off to not only businesses, but also professional folks looking for where to work. Milwaukee obviously has weather issues to contend with...nothing it can do about that. Winters are long, so be it. However, if I am a young professional or even a CEO of a business looking to see where to live / conduct my business, I could possibly be persuaded to deal with the winters if financially I was given an incentive to live / do business in the area. However, if financially I am going to be PENALIZED versus living in other states to do business in a cold climate, there is no way I am considering living there.

Also, as much as folks like the unnamed poster hate to admit it, perception is reality. While sure, more folks in Milwaukee are not victims of violent crime annually than are, there is enough violent crime occurring - statistically proven - that perceptions of violence and a lack of safety permeate. Sure, as that poster pointed out, he may know plenty of people in the rougher areas of Milwaukee who have never been victims of violent crime. However, he is basing this in his limited world of physically living in the area. To folks from outside areas (eg: not natives of WI or Milwaukee) who have no real knowledge of the area or are unfamilar with the area, of course they are going to have to go based upon statistics, news items, etc. - while these items are factual, they also build perceptions.

And the perceptions of Milwaukee being unsafe will not change until the crime is curbed - plain and simple. No excuses here...just end the crimes and violence, occurring for whatever reason they are occurring. People have to take that responsibility on themselves, and the more excuses are allowed for, the easier it is to not end the criminal activities.

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Also, people have to take a stand and not tolerate the violence that is occurring in Milwaukee.

I agree with you here 100%.

Originally Posted by south-to-west

For example, people stopped going to Northridge because of exaggerated stories of rowdy youth's causing trouble. Was there trouble? Yes. Was it really that dangerous? No.

For the most part, I agree with you here again. In fact, one of the most violent acts committed in the Northridge area - the murder at the TGI Friday's - was committed by a white fellow on his wife. However, the thing that people just have to realize is that perceptions are reality. If enough incidents/crime is occurring at an area - which was occurring at Northridge - people with money to spend have every right in the world to take that money and spend it at a different mall. It isn't the "fault" (not saying you are saying this) of the people with money, if they hear of incidents/rowdiness/problems at a mall not wanting to have a chance of being around that, and thus going elsewhere. So while these may be dismissed as "perceptions" and not reality, again, it is encumbant upon people - ALL people - to not participate in these incidents/rowdinesses/problems, etc. Then, if there are no incidents/problems/safety concerns at all, and - for example - white people still won't go to the mall "because black people go there"...then yes, that is racism and wrong.

However, I would contend that isn't the thinking of most white folks (or other folks) in the Milwaukee area, like the unnamed poster was asserting. I would contend that most folks are not scared off by color/race...however, they are scared off by crime/incidents/behaviors...and perception is indeed a part of this.

Originally Posted by south-to-west

People have to take back there streets and neighborhoods and hold the local authorities accountable for maintaining a safe and productive environment.

Agreed 100%. Personal/individual responsibility is the only thing that will work. If folks don't agree with you or me on this, they can seek out Bill Cosby - he preaches the same thing.

I will say though, you say hold the local authorities accountable...I will add that includes elected officials (maybe trying some that won't raise taxes to astronomical levels wouldn't be a bad idea!)...as well as the police, working WITH them and not always assuming that they are everyone's enemy. Are there corrupt police members? Of course there are. But overall, they are a caring, strong, vital force into keeping peace in areas...people need to recognize that and work with them.

Anyway, sorry this is long. I really appreciate the dialog with you. You have excellent thoughts. And even though we may not 100% agree, it is nice having civilized, thoughtful debate.

[mdkkr]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

How sad to think that some years back, the northside was a safe and civil area of well-kept homes and mostly German families. What an embarrassment it has become.

mdkkr,

Read the above statement by mrkool. He is clearly making a link between "safe, civil, and well-kept" with being German. It's a clear implication. I'm a Milwaukee native and I know exactly what he's implying. Maybe mrkool has black friends and even black family members, but the statment itself definitely has a racial dynamic in it that is hard to ignore.

Your argument just doesn't hold up. We don't know Mrkool, so we have to take this comment as his descriptive reply of how the facts seem to him. Ask yourself: Was it a nicer area uears ago? And, was it mostly German at that time?

If the answers are yes, it appears Mrkool is just retelling what may be historically fact.

If the area is currently populated by a large percentage of blacks, and if it has decayed over these years, you can draw a conclusion that there is a possibility the blacks may of had something to do with this status. I don't know if this is true or not, but I do know I could not empirically call MrKool a racist after such a statement. It appears to me that he is pointing something out, and you have drawn a conclusion about his inner thoughts.

Is there a conclusion you might make on why the neighborhood has decayed, if in fact, the rest of the comments are accurate?

If I posed this question:

Name me a neighborhood in the continental United States that has been improved by the construction of a housing project for low-income families?

How would you answer the question, and would you label me a racist for asking?

I think this is just civil debate/discourse. We're all probably learning something here.