Racial Tensions in Milwaukee? (Madison, Racine: rent, insurance, crime rate)

[mrkool]

mdkkr... in many quarters of the society we live in now, yes, you will be called "racist" just for asking such a question, or even stating a politically-incorrect fact about race. This is what we've come to. The folks that make the decisions and influence public opinion.. journalists, politicians, academics, are all terrified to *honestly* discuss the race issue, or even state simple, statistically accurate facts about racial differences in crime, illegitimacy, school performance, etc. When they do discuss these issues, it is not honestly. It is all about blaming "whitey", "institutional racism", "lingering effects of slavery", or just a problem that needs "more money."
And posters like illwauk and northsider414 have bought this nonsense hook, line, and sinker. And the truthtellers are called "racist."
This is why the race problem in America (or Milwaukee) will never be solved. No honest debate or solutions will ever be put forward.

[south-to-west]

Enjoy EP,

I enjoy this discussion with you as well. I agree with your statement about perception equalling reality, which is why I emphasize the need for people to reclaim their community and not be intimidated by hoodlums/criminals.

Also, you're right about taxes being too high in the Milwaukee area. Incentives are key and if Milwaukee could offer tax incentives to attract businesses from Chicagoland or elsewhere, that would be key.

mdkkr,

You're beating the issue to death. If you look at the last sentence of my post that you quoted:

Maybe mrkool has black friends and even black family members, but the statment itself definitely has a racial dynamic in it that is hard to ignore

.

Notice that I pretty much said the same things that you did about mrkool's character. I was commenting on his post, not on him personally.

mrkool,

You cannot ignore the history of race relations in Milwaukee when discussing current events. I don't think that the area became bad just because of race. I'm black and I'm pretty sure that I've never contributed to the decline of the neighborhood where I grew up in Mequon.

We all know the story of the inner city. Blacks move in, whites panic and move out to suburbs. The suburbs have restrictive covenants making it difficult for blacks to purchase homes there, thus blacks are trapped in the inner city. Job discrimination was quite common and many blacks occupied lower paying jobs. After a while, it becomes easy to develop a defeatist attitude facing this kind of adversity. Unfortunately, this grim outlook on life gets passed down from one generation to the next. People feel trapped and are more likely (not guaranteed) to turn to illicit means or earning money. Throw in a poor local economy and you have a recipe for a crime epidemic.

It's not a "blame whitey" situation and it's not a situation that you can buy your way out of. It is merely a situation of having a poor job market with bad wages and increasingly desperate circumstances. As stated above the city and the state need to find ways to attract businesses and encourage entrepreneurs in the area.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

The suburbs have restrictive covenants making it difficult for blacks to purchase homes there...

First of all, most suburban residences are not subject to any sort of covenants, at least not in the Midwest. Large-scale use of covenants, particularly as relates to homeowners associations, is a pretty recent development.

Second, which aspects of covenants make it difficult for blacks to purchase homes in any subdivision in which there is a covenant?

[south-to-west]

Drover,

Pretty much up until the 1970s, many suburban communities had restrictive covenants prohibiting the sale of a home to a non-white. In some cases, restrictive covenants even kept out Jews and other Non-Christians. The use of restrictive covenants was employed nationwide. In fact, one could argue that they were used more in the North than in the South.

The history of this practice restricted blacks to living in one area of the metro region. Even after such practices were outlawed, the pattern of segregation ensued as blacks were reluctant to move to areas where they feared they could face harrassment from neighbors and authorities and many whites were reluctant to have blacks move into their communties fearing that the neighborhood would decline immediately.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Drover,

Pretty much up until the 1970s, many suburban communities had restrictive covenants prohibiting the sale of a home to a non-white.

Race-based covenants have been unenforceable as a matter of federal law since the 1948 (see Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U.S. 1) which is before white flight to the suburbs began in ernest. Whatever other sociopolitical and economic barriers may have prevented blacks from purchasing homes in the suburbs, covenants is not one of them and hasn't been for 60 years.

[south-to-west]

Drover,

Thanks for the interesting info. Here is a link from the Wisconsin Historical Society that addresses the history of segregation in Milwaukee. You will see that housing discrimination took many forms in addition to covenants, such as rejection from lenders, refusal of servcie by real estate agents, targeted marketing, harrassment, etc.

The open-housing movement in Milwaukee in the 1960s and 1970s was a vital chapter in the city's history bringing local figures such as Father Groppi to national prominance.

Even after Open Housing laws were passed by the federal government in the late 1960s, the pattern of segregation continued. Read the article that is linked below.

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turn...ion=more_essay

[EnjoyEP]

Hi all -

Sorry "jump in" here in between some good and informative debate, however, this news occurred just yesterday...a 44-year old Waukesha man was shot and killed while filling up his vehicle in BROAD DAYLIGHT by three teenage youths - they were robbing him for a few dollars when he had stopped off at a gas station on 43rd and Capitol to fill up his vehicle.

Here are the links to the story -

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=581036

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch.../2007&id=20951

I am sorry...this is why some folks have fears of going into some parts of Milwaukee. I don't care what the "excuse" (economic, hard life, etc.) is for the actions of the thugs who robbed / murdered this guy...this is just reprehnsible, and activities like this will continue to scare people, money, economics, and a chance for the future from the City of Milwaukee.

I wonder what our old "friend" the banned poster would use to justify this now? Would he say "this doesn't happen every day?" No, not every day, but starting to be all way too common.

Perception equals reality, and this reality is breeding a huge negative perception. I guarantee the majority of residents of the Milwaukee Metro area avoid the "bad parts" of Milwaukee not because of wanting to avoid black people - race isn't the issue at all - however, they see and hear what is occurring and they have a reason to protect their safety.

Very sad.

[mdkkr]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Drover,

Thanks for the interesting info. Here is a link from the Wisconsin Historical Society that addresses the history of segregation in Milwaukee. You will see that housing discrimination took many forms in addition to covenants, such as rejection from lenders, refusal of servcie by real estate agents, targeted marketing, harrassment, etc.

The open-housing movement in Milwaukee in the 1960s and 1970s was a vital chapter in the city's history bringing local figures such as Father Groppi to national prominance.

Even after Open Housing laws were passed by the federal government in the late 1960s, the pattern of segregation continued. Read the article that is linked below.

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turn...ion=more_essay

What you're saying is that people (bankers, realtors) made "handshake agreements" to keep out blacks?

[south-to-west]

mdkkr,

Yes, pretty much. There have also been countless studies on the disparities between credit approval (between blacks and whites with the SAME credit rating) and realtors who show one ethnicity one side of town and the another ethnicity in another part of town. All in all, there had always been a mutual understanding about who lives where.

EnjoyEP,

That was a horrible crime and there is nothing to excuse of justify it. High unemployment and a bad economy explains the conditions when a high crime rate is more likely, but in no way do those reasons excuse people's actions. It will be interesting to see how this case develops and we learn more about the circumstances.

It reminds me of a case here in Atlanta when a bunch of teenagers were riding around at night and mugging people. They made the mistake one night of trying to rob an ex-Marine who was walking home after a late shift at the bar where he worked. As the kids approached him with guns raised, he kicked away the gun and stabbed two of the kids. One of them died. The weird part is that a couple of the kids came from solid middle-class backgrounds.

[mdkkr]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

mdkkr,

Yes, pretty much. There have also been countless studies on the disparities between credit approval (between blacks and whites with the SAME credit rating) and realtors who show one ethnicity one side of town and the another ethnicity in another part of town. All in all, there had always been a mutual understanding about who lives where.

EnjoyEP,

That was a horrible crime and there is nothing to excuse of justify it. High unemployment and a bad economy explains the conditions when a high crime rate is more likely, but in no way do those reasons excuse people's actions. It will be interesting to see how this case develops and we learn more about the circumstances.

It reminds me of a case here in Atlanta when a bunch of teenagers were riding around at night and mugging people. They made the mistake one night of trying to rob an ex-Marine who was walking home after a late shift at the bar where he worked. As the kids approached him with guns raised, he kicked away the gun and stabbed two of the kids. One of them died. The weird part is that a couple of the kids came from solid middle-class backgrounds.

I wonder if most blacks would want to live among whites and vice versa. Nobody wants to live in the ghetto, but when it comes down to it, do you think most people want to live among similar types with similar interests and philosophies? I think this is true beyond racial lines where Italians want to live among Italians, and Greeks among Greeks, Russians among Russians, Chinese among Chinese, etc, etc, etc, etc. This never bothered me - it's human nature. Certainly, if a black guy wants to live among Italians, Jews, Chinese, etc, - no one has a right to tell him he can't or prohibit him from doing so. I wouldn't give a damn either way, personally. Maybe part of the reason realtors show certain neighborhoods is because experience (not racist views) tells them how their more likely to get a quicker sale/commission. Is that possible?