If Milwaukee County had light rail, would you use it? (Kenosha: mover, condos)

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by city414

well who keeps voting this bastard in office.....

Those that don't want their already very-high property taxes to escalate ever farther. Those that would be paying (property owners - the tax base) for the billions of dollars that it would cost to build a train.

[Drover]

Depends on where my start point and end points are and if light-rail goes to either. The one thing light rail would have to compete with in Milwaukee is the fact that traffic and parking density are low enough that it's pretty convenient to drive from and to most points in Milwaukee, with the downtown parking situation being the main exception.

[south-to-west]

This topic has been discussed at length plenty of times on this forum and my honest opinion is that Milwaukee is not ready for light rail yet. I am a huge advocate for public transport and rail transportation, but Milwaukee doesn't have the congestion or population to warrant such as system. However vast improvements should be made in the existing public transport system.

For example, a public transport authority should be formed that includes the surrounding counties of Waukesha, Ozaukee, and Washington Counties. Given that all of these areas wouldn't need local bus service, but rather commuter bus services. Another major step should be that the funding for the system should be generated by a sales and/or gas tax instead of property taxes, which is an unfair burden given that visitors would also use the system as well. A final step would be to extend the Metra line all the way to Milwaukee, enhancing connectivity within the Milwaukee-Chicago-Gary megaregion.

Milwaukee could also support a bus rapid transit system that uses articulated buses that use intelligent technology and run on a separate right-of-way along major corridors. Eventually these right-of-ways could be converted into light rail once demand warrants it.

Last but not least, Milwaukee County (as well as the surrounding counties) need to elect a county executive to champion these initiatives rather than ones, like Walker, who opt to do nothing and propose nothing. This isn't a Democrat or GOP issue, but rather an issue of competent and efficient government that does what it takes to make the metro area more economically competitive, of which the efficient and timely movement of goods, services, and people is a significant component.

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

The big question for all of you who support this:

Answer who would pay for the construction and maintenance of such a system. We are talking billions and billions and BILLIONS of dollars.

Who is writing the checks?

Are you serious? The fares pay for the operation and maintenance costs and a miniscule tax increase pays for the initial construction. Denver Metro instituted a 0.4% sales tax increase that is going to finance the majority of the $7.9 billion that its going to cost to build. The federal government is going to offer matching funds to cover the rest. Why can't Greater Milwaukee do the same thing?

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

Those that don't want their already very-high property taxes to escalate ever farther. Those that would be paying (property owners - the tax base) for the billions of dollars that it would cost to build a train.

Property taxes have absolutely nothing to do with mass transit. If Cleveland and Little Rock can manage to come up with the money, I'm pretty sure Milwaukee can find it too.

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

This topic has been discussed at length plenty of times on this forum and my honest opinion is that Milwaukee is not ready for light rail yet. I am a huge advocate for public transport and rail transportation, but Milwaukee doesn't have the congestion or population to warrant such as system. However vast improvements should be made in the existing public transport system.

For example, a public transport authority should be formed that includes the surrounding counties of Waukesha, Ozaukee, and Washington Counties. Given that all of these areas wouldn't need local bus service, but rather commuter bus services. Another major step should be that the funding for the system should be generated by a sales and/or gas tax instead of property taxes, which is an unfair burden given that visitors would also use the system as well. A final step would be to extend the Metra line all the way to Milwaukee, enhancing connectivity within the Milwaukee-Chicago-Gary megaregion.

Milwaukee could also support a bus rapid transit system that uses articulated buses that use intelligent technology and run on a separate right-of-way along major corridors. Eventually these right-of-ways could be converted into light rail once demand warrants it.

Last but not least, Milwaukee County (as well as the surrounding counties) need to elect a county executive to champion these initiatives rather than ones, like Walker, who opt to do nothing and propose nothing. This isn't a Democrat or GOP issue, but rather an issue of competent and efficient government that does what it takes to make the metro area more economically competitive, of which the efficient and timely movement of goods, services, and people is a significant component.

I agree that the Greater Milwaukee area needs a regional transportation authority.

[slamont61]

Milwaukee will NEVER be progressive enough to support an issue as costly and intense as Light Rail. Each time it's brought up anywhere the cost simply drives it down. Not even discussed. Funny thing about it, Light Rail would make Milwaukee into a very desireable City in which to reside. Currently the Milwaukee Transit system exists to provide minimal service and So too does Waukesha. The Counties are bearly linked together and the very thread where I'm typing is ignoring the issue too. Think about it, Waukesha is the budding Satalite Suburb of Milwaukee with real growth going on and it's covered by the use of about six buses. Two that reach out to Oconomowoc and a few more that hit Delafield only. That's it unless one is going to take a City bus to transfer at Brookfield Square Mall. Not too practical.

The Interstate is clogged to maximum usage and can't be expanded. Light Rail could easily be implemented to link up all the different neighborhoods creating cultural diversity. The build would create Jobs for many years and the money pumped into the economy would trickle down all over the place.

No, Milwaukee is too stubborn to even consider it. All the Counties in the region should band together and at least study a way to make it happen. Just imagine all that would benefit. If I could jump on the light rail in say Wauwatosa and with maybe one transfer end up at the Airport? No, not this area. That would be too easy. Keep it like it is and keep progress at bay.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by slamont61

Milwaukee will NEVER be progressive enough to support an issue as costly and intense as Light Rail...

And herein lies a major, major stumbling block at the heart of the issue: viewing it in terms of ideology rather than in terms of practicality. Building a light rail system seems to be an ideological statement ("lookie! We have light rail! That makes us progressive! Yay for us! Doesn't our progressive light-rail system toally make you want to move here?") for many of its proponents. Ideological statements are fine I guess, but a price tag of several billion is an awfully expensive ideological statement.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

The fares pay for the operation and maintenance costs and a miniscule tax increase pays for the initial construction.

The fares only pay for the operation and maintenance if you have enough riders to break even. No way Metro Milwaukee would come close to this even with the most optimistic of estimates.

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

Denver Metro instituted a 0.4% sales tax increase that is going to finance the majority of the $7.9 billion that its going to cost to build.

1) Denver metro has a much bigger population base - and a more affluent one - to come up with $7.9 billion via a sales tax. Plus, that much bigger population base will be the much bigger population base that will also support the train via ridership.

Denver metro currently to Milwaukee metro currently couldn't be more apples and oranges.

2) Denver metro has currently one of the lower tax rate bases of major metro areas in the US.

Milwaukee assuredly does not.

An increase in sales tax in Denver isn't as significant to total as one in Milwaukee would be, and again, Milwaukee's would need to be greater (much lower population base with a much less affluent spending community).

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

Property taxes have absolutely nothing to do with mass transit. If Cleveland and Little Rock can manage to come up with the money, I'm pretty sure Milwaukee can find it too.

Buffalo, NY came up with the money too, and it is a big stinking dredge on their system now.

It works in a Denver metro or a Chicago metro if the DEMAND is there first...eg: a big enough population base, enough traffic congestion to make enough people want to regularly use it.

Milwaukee metro simply doesn't come close to the demand right now and we'd fall into the Buffalo category.


I am a proponent of a rapid ride bus system and things of that nature. They may not be as "cool" "hip" or "in" as a train, however, they are far more agile, would be a good "next step" for Milwaukee, and most importantly....far, far, far more affordable.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by Drover

And herein lies a major, major stumbling block at the heart of the issue: viewing it in terms of ideology rather than in terms of practicality. Building a light rail system seems to be an ideological statement ("lookie! We have light rail! That makes us progressive! Yay for us! Doesn't our progressive light-rail system toally make you want to move here?") for many of its proponents. Ideological statements are fine I guess, but a price tag of several billion is an awfully expensive ideological statement.

^^^This above sums the issue up perfectly.

Sure, if the "light rail gods" just dropped a shiny new system into the city - great! - no one would be against it.

Unfortunately, things like this come with a MASSIVE price tag, and if you spend, you'd better make sure you come out ahead or even. Otherwise you have a financial albatross in an area that cannot afford any more.

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

The fares only pay for the operation and maintenance if you have enough riders to break even. No way Metro Milwaukee would come close to this even with the most optimistic of estimates.

When gas goes back up to $4 or $5, people will have no choice but to turn to mass transit.

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

1) Denver metro has a much bigger population base - and a more affluent one - to come up with $7.9 billion via a sales tax. Plus, that much bigger population base will be the much bigger population base that will also support the train via ridership.

Denver metro currently to Milwaukee metro currently couldn't be more apples and oranges.

The population of Denver Metro is around 2.5 million and Greater Milwaukee is around 1.8 million, not that big of a difference. The city of Milwaukee has around 7,000 people per sq/mi whereas Denver is about 2,500 people per sq/mi. Light rail would be more efficient here because it wouldn't have to sprawl out in every direction like an octopus to be effective.

Originally Posted by EnjoyEP

2) Denver metro has currently one of the lower tax rate bases of major metro areas in the US.

Milwaukee assuredly does not.

An increase in sales tax in Denver isn't as significant to total as one in Milwaukee would be, and again, Milwaukee's would need to be greater (much lower population base with a much less affluent spending community).

Denver wasn't always affluent. They made some big investments like the Colorado Convention Center, they converted old warehouses into luxury lofts in LoDo and the Central Platte Valley, they made an effort to revitalize their downtown, and they built the beginnings of their light rail system long before the traffic was as nightmarish as it is today. All of those things sound an awful lot like Milwaukee. We have the Midwest Airlines Center, we have the Historic Third Ward and Walker's Point, we have Miller Park, and we have the Riverwalk downtown. All we seem to be missing is light rail.