How far out of MKE do you have to go... (Milwaukee: 2009, crime)

[JMadison]

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

Could you please share some of these "stats" with the rest of us???

Ok, first, this is from memory of a USA Today I read in '98. Violent crime in the black population 300% of average, Out of wedlock birth rate 250% of average, AIDS rate 300% of average. Haven't been able to track down a cite. But that's a thumbnail sketch of a violent and sexually indiscriminate sub population.

Now some cites.

First by country, notice the african and african areas in general lead the list?

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By City. Are these not also mostly the blackest cities?

America's Deadliest Cities on Google Maps

Now the FBI reporting:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf

The data is out there if you want to go find it.

Consider the following conclusions based on Table 2.5 in the above document. This analysis of the data seems to be saying the black perpetrator ratio per capita is 600% higher:

Whites, Blacks and Murder - 2004
Murder in the United States by race and age with additional details
[SIZE=2]Sources: Crime in the United States, 2004, Table 2.5, and National Population Projections, Detailed Files, 2001-2010 (US Census)[/SIZE]

Age Group

Murders committed by
US population (thousands)
Population
Ratio
White / Black
Per Capita Rate of Murder Perpetration, Ratio of Black to White

WhitesBlacksWhitesBlacks[SIZE=2]9-12[/SIZE][SIZE=2]8[/SIZE][SIZE=2]7[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12773[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2585[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.941[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]13-16[/SIZE][SIZE=2]210[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]256[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12988[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2722[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.771[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.8[/SIZE][SIZE=2]17-19[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]645[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]853[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]9724[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1907[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.099[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.7[/SIZE][SIZE=2]20-24[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1159[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1470[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]16014[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3022[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.299[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.7[/SIZE][SIZE=2]25-34[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1339[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1288[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29157[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5282[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.520[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.3[/SIZE][SIZE=2]35-44[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]876[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]599[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]34912[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5714[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.110[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.2[/SIZE][SIZE=2]45-54[/SIZE][SIZE=2]534[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]257[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]34113[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4875[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.998[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3.4[/SIZE][SIZE=2]55-64[/SIZE][SIZE=2]210[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]85[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]24459[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2849[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]8.585[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3.5[/SIZE][SIZE=2]65-74[/SIZE][SIZE=2]72[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]31[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]15720[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1765[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]8.907[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3.8[/SIZE][SIZE=2] Total or Average[/SIZE][SIZE=2]5053[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4887[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]189860[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30721[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] 6.180[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.0[/SIZE]

[JMadison]

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

Could you please share some of these "stats" with the rest of us???

Trust me, you really don't want to pull the figures out into the light if you want to discredit the view that "black is valid correlation indicator of problem areas".

Ok, first, this is from memory of a USA Today I read in '98. Violent crime in the black population 300% of average, Out of wedlock birth rate 250% of average, AIDS rate 300% of average. Haven't been able to track down a cite. But that's a thumbnail sketch of a violent and sexually indiscriminate sub population.

Now some cites.

First by country, notice the african and african areas in general lead the list?

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By City. Are these not also mostly the blackest cities?

America's Deadliest Cities on Google Maps

Now the FBI reporting:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf

The data is out there if you want to go find it.

Consider the following conclusions based on Table 2.5 in the above document. This analysis of the data seems to be saying the black perpetrator ratio per capita is 600% higher:

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by JMadison

Trust me, you really don't want to pull the figures out into the light if you want to discredit the view that "black is valid correlation indicator of problem areas".

Ok, first, this is from memory of a USA Today I read in '98. Violent crime in the black population 300% of average, Out of wedlock birth rate 250% of average, AIDS rate 300% of average. Haven't been able to track down a cite. But that's a thumbnail sketch of a violent and sexually indiscriminate sub population.

Now some cites.

First by country, notice the african and african areas in general lead the list?

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you go by regions, then Southern Africa is the most violent. However, if you go by individual nations, then North America actually has more countries in the top 10 than any other continent.
1. Iraq (Asia)
2. El Salvador (North America)
3. Sierra Leone (Africa)
4. Honduras (North America)
5. Jamaica (North America)
6. Venezuela (South America)
7. Guatemala (North America)
8. Angola (Africa)
9. South Africa (Africa)
10. Colombia (South America)

Originally Posted by JMadison

By City. Are these not also mostly the blackest cities?

America's Deadliest Cities on Google Maps

When I see small manufacturing towns like Youngstown, OH; Flint, MI; and Reading, PA on the list I would imagine they have high crime because nobody in those towns have jobs anymore. Poverty is a much better indicator of crime than ethnicity.

Originally Posted by JMadison

Now the FBI reporting:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf

Sorry I'm not going to read 526 pages of material to have an argument over the internet.

Originally Posted by JMadison

The data is out there if you want to go find it.

Consider the following conclusions based on Table 2.5 in the above document. This analysis of the data seems to be saying the black perpetrator ratio per capita is 600% higher:

That little thumbnail you posted actually shows white people commit way more murders than Black people. Doesn't really help your case.

[Angorlee]

"Have you once thought about the fact that poverty could be a big part of it."


Poverty has nothing to do with high crime. If it did then during the great depression would have been one of the most violent periods in the history of America because during those hard times most people didn't have a damn thing to their name and many people were on the verge of hunger. Yet the crime rate was very low and even in cities like chicago people didn't even think of locking their doors went they went some where. So you have to qualify that theory that crime and poverty are related. I know that crime and poverty are not related in the white communities. But it may be different in black communities.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by Angorlee

"Have you once thought about the fact that poverty could be a big part of it."


Poverty has nothing to do with high crime. If it did then during the great depression would have been one of the most violent periods in the history of America because during those hard times most people didn't have a damn thing to their name and many people were on the verge of hunger. Yet the crime rate was very low and even in cities like chicago people didn't even think of locking their doors went they went some where. So you have to qualify that theory that crime and poverty are related. I know that crime and poverty are not related in the white communities. But it may be different in black communities.

You never thought about prohibition spanning part of the great depression. You had gangsters like Al Capone, The Purple Gang,etc. Do you think of that?

[jjacobeclark]

Originally Posted by Angorlee

"Have you once thought about the fact that poverty could be a big part of it."


Poverty has nothing to do with high crime. If it did then during the great depression would have been one of the most violent periods in the history of America because during those hard times most people didn't have a damn thing to their name and many people were on the verge of hunger. Yet the crime rate was very low and even in cities like chicago people didn't even think of locking their doors went they went some where. So you have to qualify that theory that crime and poverty are related. I know that crime and poverty are not related in the white communities. But it may be different in black communities.

What about the Balkan countries like Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia, Slovenia, and Romania? Those are poor European (white) countries with extremely high murder rates.

Oh and by the way, you are a T-R-O-L-L.

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

You never thought about prohibition spanning part of the great depression. You had gangsters like Al Capone, The Purple Gang,etc. Do you think of that?

Indeed Prohibition was an incredibly violent era in this nation's history that Angorlee has conveniently forgotten about.

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Angorlee

"Have you once thought about the fact that poverty could be a big part of it."


Poverty has nothing to do with high crime. If it did then during the great depression would have been one of the most violent periods in the history of America because during those hard times most people didn't have a damn thing to their name and many people were on the verge of hunger. Yet the crime rate was very low and even in cities like chicago people didn't even think of locking their doors went they went some where. So you have to qualify that theory that crime and poverty are related. I know that crime and poverty are not related in the white communities. But it may be different in black communities.

There was surely plenty of crime during the 1920s and 1930s, though information from that era is not as comprehensive as information from the 1960s on.

In any case, don't forget that Blacks went through the Depression, too. If as you say, there wasn't much crime during that time, that might suggest that Blacks weren't committing much crime. However, government records and written accounts (Erskine, Agee/Evans, etc.) suggest that crime (as we know it now) was considered high. These records (esp. the written ones) put emphasis on crimes and other matters in white communities (usually poor white communities), so they're not so helpful for understanding crime among blacks.

Perhaps a more helpful way into the matter would be to see what crime was like (from records and anecdotes) in places like Chicago during 1910s, during the first phase of the Great Migration (when Blacks from the South moved up North for better opportunities, and there were actually jobs available for them).

[JMadison]

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

If you go by regions, then Southern Africa is the most violent. However, if you go by individual nations, then North America actually has more countries in the top 10 than any other continent.
1. Iraq (Asia)
2. El Salvador (North America)
3. Sierra Leone (Africa)
4. Honduras (North America)
5. Jamaica (North America)
6. Venezuela (South America)
7. Guatemala (North America)
8. Angola (Africa)
9. South Africa (Africa)
10. Colombia (South America)

When I see small manufacturing towns like Youngstown, OH; Flint, MI; and Reading, PA on the list I would imagine they have high crime because nobody in those towns have jobs anymore. Poverty is a much better indicator of crime than ethnicity.

Sorry I'm not going to read 526 pages of material to have an argument over the internet.

That little thumbnail you posted actually shows white people commit way more murders than Black people. Doesn't really help your case.

1) North America also has more blacks (originally brought over as slaves admittedly) than the lower ranked countries. Black percentage still correlates with homicides.

2) Poverty is a strong correlation. No doubt. Which apparently follows blacks around, worldwide. From a pragmatic perspective of trying to figure out where to live, black = avoid still holds. An Coulter claims an even stronger correlation to "out of wedlock birthrate" which is highest among blacks.

3) You apparently don't understand the thumbnail. Certainly whites have a higher count. But on a per capita basis blacks are 600% higher. You don't have to read all 500+ pages. I cited the relevant source data.

You're trying to rewrite a widely recognized fact that there is a correlation between black and violent crime. The DOJ even has documents on it's pages pointing out that it *is* a fact... and then goes on to try and examine (i.e. justify) *why*.

So as a practical matter, black areas = problem areas is indisputable.

What is debatable are the causes.

[JMadison]

Originally Posted by jjacobeclark

What about the Balkan countries like Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia, Slovenia, and Romania? Those are poor European (white) countries with extremely high murder rates.

Oh and by the way, you are a T-R-O-L-L.

Indeed Prohibition was an incredibly violent era in this nation's history that Angorlee has conveniently forgotten about.

Prohibition was violent. No doubt poverty played a role, but so did the fact that Prohibition created a black market... with attendent problems. No different than "the drug war" of today.

Trying to make illegal something there's such a strong market for, always leads to a black market. And since that market is sourced outside the U.S. I suspect that is why the drug cartels are exceptionally violent.

On this worldwide list, those areas you cite actually have a lower homicide rate than the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

Still no getting around it. Black density = violent crime density. How many stats do have to be tracked down to see this?

The bigger question is why? At least for people who want to fix it. For the every day person trying to make a "where to live" decision, the reasons are largely unimportant.

[JMadison]

Originally Posted by Angorlee

"Have you once thought about the fact that poverty could be a big part of it."


Poverty has nothing to do with high crime. If it did then during the great depression would have been one of the most violent periods in the history of America because during those hard times most people didn't have a damn thing to their name and many people were on the verge of hunger. Yet the crime rate was very low and even in cities like chicago people didn't even think of locking their doors went they went some where. So you have to qualify that theory that crime and poverty are related. I know that crime and poverty are not related in the white communities. But it may be different in black communities.

I'm gonna have to say I feel there is a correlation between poverty and crime. At least economic crime, like stealing food. Needing to eat is a big motivator.

What is debatable is at what point the crime becomes a crime of neccessity vrs. convenient, or an act of frustration.

I.e. a poor neighborhood doesn't *have* to be crime ridden if folks can adjust to living at less posh levels. But that presupposes that we mean well off enough to eat, just not so well off as to have lots of toys or money for paint, etc.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that crime that occurs above the level of "enough money for food, clothes and other neccessities" is elective and may indicate something about a populace. But below that level, basic survival kicks in.