Is Milwaukee A Dangerous City (statistics, murders, homicides)

[Allan Trafton]

Originally Posted by TommyGavin

We have a little saying, and that is that those who do the most talking have done the least.
It WAS a good discussion.




Don't you dare insult them, especially when you don't know a thing about them. You've proven what you are, so this discussion is done, as far as my participation in it.

Why don't don't you go back to Detroit, and visit a few engine houses there.
Those guys are probably the only guys who still give a sh*t about that city. They sure as hell don't risk their lives for the money, or the working environment, and they sure don't wish their squalor conditions on anyone else.

You have a chip on your shoulder about something, I don't know what, not that it matters.
I never made direct comparisons, between Detroit and Milwaukee. I said that there was issues going on that are very similar, in fact strikingly.
I also very clearly pointed out that the basic city services in the city here are alive and well.

We have a world class water system, my garbage gets picked up every week, the roads are in decent condition, the police solve murders, we have a nationally recognized EMS system, etc...

The way this forum reads, some would like this place to be compared to Mayberry, and we can't do that. There are some real problems in this city that we, as it's residents need to be aware of.
Does it mean that we should flee it? I hope not, I'm stuck living here.

Really, you talked as much as me. So I have no idea what your trying to say.

I have no chip on my shoulder. I just making a fair comparison between Detriot and Milwaukee based on facts, logic and personal experience thats all. This is how I see it

I having nothing against Detriot firefighters. I'm sure they do a brave noble job, but it is human nature when your at the bottom to include others. And lets be honest, Detroit is at the bottom. Not the firefighters, but the city.

As far as my experience in the inner city. I was only stating this to show you what I have seen and experienced and that I'm not just running at the month. Nothing more. I know you guys have it tough and see bad things. There is no doubt about this and I respect the job MFD does. They do a world class job. Best in the nation as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see why you feel so insulted because I disagree with you. It's nothing personal.

[Allan Trafton]

Originally Posted by TommyGavin

I'm stuck living here.

I think this pretty much answers everything.

[ffknight918]

TommyGavin... Do you work for MFD? Just curious. I used to work in the suburbs. I took the MFD test for 2008. After the written, interview, physical, etc. I finished at #10 out of the 5600 that applied. I actually just turned the job down a couple weeks ago. It's a great fire department, but I like it better out here in Washington, DC. I prefer the city and the DCFD is arguably the most aggressive fire department in the nation. Some FDNY guy that I was with last weekend actually told me that they look up to our engine company tactics. It just seems like a better fit for me. So it looks like I'm staying here.

You're right about the EMS though. Milwaukee private EMS is pretty good. It's run by the FD here, but isn't doing so great.

[Milwaukee, WI]

Originally Posted by TommyGavin

There are some real problems in this city that we, as it's residents need to be aware of.
Does it mean that we should flee it? I hope not, I'm stuck living here.

Ask a cop and firefighter where they would live if they weren't "stuck living here" or forced to live in the city. They are paid very generously with a horde of benefits, early retiement, plenty of time off for running side jobs (firemen), and yet they still complain and moan that they can't build a small mansion on a lake out in sprawlville with city money. The job is just a secure paycheck to a lot of you guys and then its home to the outskirts of the city in neighborhoods hand picked by union brothers. I wish more would choose to spread out to the city as caring civil servants to prevent neighborhood decay. That would be heroic but without media coverage.

[Allan Trafton]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

Ask a cop and firefighter where they would live if they weren't "stuck living here" or forced to live in the city. They are paid very generously with a horde of benefits, early retiement, plenty of time off for running side jobs (firemen), and yet they still complain and moan that they can't build a small mansion on a lake out in sprawlville with city money. The job is just a secure paycheck to a lot of you guys and then its home to the outskirts of the city in neighborhoods hand picked by union brothers. I wish more would choose to spread out to the city as caring civil servants to prevent neighborhood decay. That would be heroic but without media coverage.

Excellent post!

[TommyGavin]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

Ask a cop and firefighter where they would live if they weren't "stuck living here" or forced to live in the city.

A wee bit bitter are we, today? Maybe you should turn off the AM radio and do some thinking for yourself.
Do you have kids? Where do you send your kids to school? If you live in the city, you had better be sending them to MPS.
MPS is not a realistic option, even for MPS teachers, which means that on top of paying for something that will never be utilized, a city employee must pony up thousands of dollars per year for private school tuition.

Never mind the fact that this city is a never ending source of user fees on top of extremely high taxes.
Truth be told, if I didn't have to live in the city, I still would live here. I don't have kids and enjoy city life, so I enjoy residing in the city.

However, it does frost my ass to see my brother have all of the same city services in Waukesha, with a home assessed a hundred thousand dollars more than mine, pay significantly less in property taxes each year. He also can send his kids to Waukesha public schools. His streets are plowed better, his crime is a fraction of the city of Milwaukee, his garbage is picked more efficiently than mine, and he has more money in his own pocket every month because he pays fewer property taxes and user fees.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

They are paid very generously with a horde of benefits, early retiement, plenty of time off for running side jobs (firemen), and yet they still complain and moan that they can't build a small mansion on a lake out in sprawlville with city money.

I could just tell you to pound sand, but I won't. The life span of the average urban firefighter is 8 years below the national average. There is no way that a sixty year old could perform this work, and a 50-55 year old is marginal, and even less likely when they must work at multiple fires, extrication's, etc...
Because yes, we do work at multiple fires very frequently, along with a host of other types of emergencies.
The list of cancers and lung disease prevalent are too long for me to list. Many of the benefits are there to take care of guys that develop pulmonary and cardiac issues, along with cancers, all do to performing the job.

Oh, and it isn't "city money", it is a salary earned for performing a job. Yes, the source is from tax dollars, but the salary is legitimately earned, just like in any other job.
And not that it matters, but I spent the first eight hours of my day off today sleeping, after working a pair of overnight fires, nothing newsworthy, except for the one yesterday morning, but enough to prevent me from working any so-called side job.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

The job is just a secure paycheck to a lot of you guys and then its home to the outskirts of the city in neighborhoods hand picked by union brothers.

It is a secure paycheck, but so what? Should the city be able to dictate what neighborhoods we live in, too? Would that satisfy you? Maybe you could come and pick out my food for me, or tell me what car to buy, or what store to shop at.
You don't want your family to be safe? You don't want your home to be secure while your not there?
Just because we work for the city we should forgo all of our lifestyle choices?

Why don't you move your family to 24th and Brown; that would be "heroic", with no news coverage, as well.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

I wish more would choose to spread out to the city as caring civil servants to prevent neighborhood decay. That would be heroic but without media coverage.

Why, so every time they go to work their house gets cleaned out? Or every time their wife walks the dog she gets robbed?


You guys completely missed my point when I made the original remark about having to live here, not that I really care.

City employees have more at stake to living in this city than the average citizen does. We have our careers invested in this city, and can't afford to just take up and leave, like the average citizen can.
When I took this job, I was committed to spending at least 25 years of my life in this city, with no real option of moving out. I have more invested in this city than does the average citizen who can up and move.
I am vocal on this thread because I want this city to succeed and not fail. Right now I think it is moving towards failure.

The people I bought my house from almost 12 years ago now were selling it to move out to Muskego. The reason they were moving was so that they could send their child to public school, something that the average city employee can't do.

If we want to keep the animosity and sarcasm up, we certainly can. I have better things to do with my time though, than to argue with a computer screen.

The point of the thread was whether or not this city is violent. Some say no, some say yes. You want to believe that it isn't a violent city? So be it, it's no skin off my nose.
You wish to believe that firemen are lazy, greedy, or in it for the paycheck? So be it, though I would challenge you to make that remark in person.

The majority of guys I know would not move out of the city, that's the police, and I think they have a legit argument. However, it would be nice for guys who have multiple kids to have a choice also, especially when the public schools system is not a viable option.
We're paid decently, but not that decent. The majority of guys also don't have side businesses; some do, but most don't, as they're too busy raising their family.

[TommyGavin]

Originally Posted by Allan Trafton

Really, you talked as much as me. So I have no idea what your trying to say.

You were the one who stated you had far more time in the inner city than do I.
A statement made without knowing a thing about me. You want to make statements such as that, you're doing a lot of talking.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize for that, but my opinion on this city is well founded, and well researched.

Originally Posted by Allan Trafton

I don't see why you feel so insulted because I disagree with you. It's nothing personal.

I'm not insulted, but it just irks me when someone drops the "I have seen more than you" line.
I enjoyed the discussion up until that point.

I love this city and enjoy living here. I have however, traveled a significant amount, and have seen other cities of similar size. Milwaukee is absolutely going in the wrong direction.
Cops and firemen are the best gauges for what is happening in cities, because they live the neighborhoods.

You want to disagree with it, so be it. Just take a look at statistics nationwide, all are down similarly.

[Milwaukee, WI]

TommyGavin do you beat people up when they "challenge" you by saying your in it for the money, or are greedy or lazy? How dare they question the almighty fireman! I am friends with Milwaukee police and firemen. They are just like anyone else and no better and act that way. They can admit they took the job to retire in their 40s and because they didnt want to go to a 4 year college and still make a good living. I know civil service is not like a priests calling to the church. Money talks.

Us commonfolk love firefighters and police officers and desire that a couple live on our blocks for protection. When all of them live as far away as possible from the people they serve it hurts the city. We all care more about what happens in our backyard than elsewhere. Noone is asking you to live in a dangerous neighborhood, but it sounds like your "larger stake in the city than non city workers" ultimately ends at the end of your block. One one hand you say cops/ff care more, but on the other hand you say that you don't want to live in the average neighborhood because the neighbors might "clean your house out when you leave," "mug your wife while walking the dog," or send their underperforming children to the same schools as yours. Is this what you generally think of Milwaukee residents?

These long defenses about how selfless you are for paying for private school and working night shifts are ridiculous. I hope your coworkers have more respect for the people of this city, they fund your upper middle class lifestyle. Think of what would do if you didn't have a city job.

[TommyGavin]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

TommyGavin do you beat people up when they "challenge" you by saying your in it for the money, or are greedy or lazy?

No. But if you are going to call out the integrity of a person, and imply they are greedy, lazy, or any other pejorative, you had better know and understand the person, first. That doesn't happen behind some anonymous computer screen, and a made up screen name that isn't your own.
It's easy to make claims and accusations anonymously.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

How dare they question the almighty fireman! I am friends with Milwaukee police and firemen. They are just like anyone else and no better and act that way. They can admit they took the job to retire in their 40s and because they didnt want to go to a 4 year college and still make a good living. I know civil service is not like a priests calling to the church. Money talks.

I have no problem with admitting that it will be nice to retire younger, and they aren't retiring in their forties.
The problem is with your insinuation that it isn't earned, or that it is plush. It is a nice retirement, but there are reasons why it is that way, and they are well founded and researched.
Statements like yours focus on a single aspect of the entire job, and get harped on. There are aspects of this job that are very demanding, very physical and very dangerous. Because of that, it isn't an old persons job,at least it isn't on a line firefighting company.

I don't bring that up to brag, I'm just pointing it out because of the statement you made. It's belittling and condescending, to say the least. The reason there are decent benefits is because of a defined need for them.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

Us commonfolk love firefighters and police officers and desire that a couple live on our blocks for protection. When all of them live as far away as possible from the people they serve it hurts the city. We all care more about what happens in our backyard than elsewhere.

I don't see it hurting the city because not all would move away. Very few cities have residency requirements, and it doesn't hurt them at all.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

Noone is asking you to live in a dangerous neighborhood, but it sounds like your "larger stake in the city than non city workers" ultimately ends at the end of your block. One one hand you say cops/ff care more, but on the other hand you say that you don't want to live in the average neighborhood because the neighbors might "clean your house out when you leave," "mug your wife while walking the dog," or send their underperforming children to the same schools as yours. Is this what you generally think of Milwaukee residents?

Go back and read your statement about encouraging cops and firemen to move into decaying neighborhoods, in order to help them thrive.
That's fine, but it can also be dangerous. I work with guys who grew up in questionable neighborhoods; 24th and Cherry, 25th and Clarke, 1st and Burleigh, to list some off the top of my head. The first thing they did was move to a safer neighborhood, because they were worried about their family's safety.

Unless you're willing to do it yourself, don't expect it of someone else. That is all I meant by my remarks. I have helped neighbors around my home on more than one occasion, because that's what neighbors do.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

these long defenses about how selfless you are for paying for private school and working night shifts are ridiculous. I hope your coworkers have more respect for the people of this city, they fund your upper middle class lifestyle.

I wasn't making long defenses, I was providing an opinion on how living in the city can create financial hardship on a family, no more no less. When MPS teachers won't send their kids to MPS schools, there is something wrong. Deny it all you want to, but the schools are in disarray, especially the secondary. We respond into high schools with great regularity, as do the police. There are some real issues in them.

And I wasn't seeking pity for "working night shifts", again, it was in direct response to your condescension. If you don't like it, don't put it out there. You stuck your nose into a discussion, now deal with it.
And in case you forgot, I am also a tax payer in this city and in this country, so we all fund the city to give us quality services.

Originally Posted by Milwaukee, WI

Think of what would do if you didn't have a city job.

Yeah, I do every single day. I am blessed to have a great career that allows me to train and learn and participate in many different facets of this job. I am indeed very fortunate.

So save your condescending, attacking attitude for someone else. You didn't like it that I called this city dangerous.
Crime is still rampant in parts of town, people are being shot on a daily basis, some die and some don't.
You can stick your head in the sand if you want to, and hide behind statistics like the politicians do, but that doesn't change anything.

You want a safe Milwaukee, we need to strive for 1960. The city that year had 10 or so murders, with almost 300,000 more residents.
We also need to look to other places that are relatively safe, and see if what they are doing will work here.

[Allan Trafton]

Lets clear up the population facts

1960 - 741,000 peak year
2009 - 604,000

Minus 137,000 not 300,000