Lino Lakes trying to go English Only (sales, rental)

[srsmn]

Originally Posted by golfgal

I never said it was easy for them but they TRIED. I think if you go back in history you will find that you are wrong and new immigrants DID try to learn English, without the help of English as a Second Language classes, mind you. No one said it was easy and no, many adults were not fluent but they TRIED. They also encouraged their children to only speak English outside of the home. Do I have proof, yes, ask any adult living today or any child of an immigrant that came over before say 1970 how hard they tried to learn English. Now, go visit some of the adult ESL classes and see which groups are trying and which are not. Some are, some are not.

Right, and I'm telling you that the current generation of immigrants-- by and large, and no: there is no statistically significant distinction between individual immigrant groups-- ARE trying, too.

And no, you would not find that it took any less time for previous immigrant groups to adopt English, by-and-large. It took ON AVERAGE a generation-- an amount of time that you have not extended to our current immigrants before misjudging them. And no, they did not have the benefit of ELL classes, per se, but go back and look at the "zero tolerance" programs towards German and other languages during WWI and the inter-bellum period, and tell me how effective that tactic was.

Also, I know that it's a bad habit of mine to call you out, Golfgal, but when was the last time that you were in an ELL classroom? See, I work with kids from an ELL background on a pretty much daily basis, so I do have some leverage to talk about these things. If you have similar experiences, I would LOVE to hear about them...

PS. Pretty well known fact among us history major types that immigrant parents ROUTINELY discouraged their kids from speaking English, as it was seen as an abandonment. Nice try on that little tidbit of mis-history, though

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Slig

....and just shows how ignorant some people in the outer burbs still are .

I understand that you disagree with their viewpoint. But your statement relating to the "outer burbs" is just as ignorant.

[srsmn]

Originally Posted by Kid Cann

Do I dare mention that my great-great grandfather came here, saved for 5 months to BUY A BOOK. Taught himself, his wife, and his children how to speak English from Finnish.

That's a nice story about your great-great grandfather, if it's true. But it is the exception, not the rule.

He didn't need his local city to change a law, put up Finnish signage, or have the city put out press releases in his little language like a baby. He manned up, learned the language and would not allow Finnish to be spoken in the home.

I doubt that your great-great grandfather came during a time when Finns constituted the single largest immigrant group, spoke a common language with well over half of the nation's immigrants, or constituted a demographic that was dramatically changing from the non-Finnish speaking to the Finnish speaking, and fast. In fact, I know he wasn't....because at no point in the nation's history was that ever the case for the Finns.

And, ad hominum attacks aside, since when does the fact that things were bad in the past justify that we should keep it the same way now?

Immigrants now-a-days come here and just expect a job, a home, a 9-5, a soccer team, and everyone to bend over backwards for their "language barrier"... Some schools have even hired full time ESL instructors.

My great great grandfather is rolling in his grave ...

I would like to refer you to my responses to Golfgal. I infer from your post that you have spent very little, if any, time with recent immigrants. While I don't have the energy to take this apart point-by-point, I will say that your comment about the 9-5 jobs belies your ignorance here. A majority of immigrants live in working class neighborhoods, and a majority of the adults in working class neighborhoods work multiple PART-TIME jobs to support themselves and their families. Few of them expect anything handed to them, and it's a good thing, too.....because without them working hard, our local economy would be further down the toilet than it is even now.

And that's the real essence of this: supporting our immigrants is not only a good way to insure some sort of economic sustainability, but it is also the most practical way to avoid problems in the future. Because they're not going anywhere, and a small financial investment now will save us from problems in spades.

But, ignorant is ignorant, and stubborn is stubborn. Not much good in trying to argue with either of them . Sorry-- it was a futile exercise, and I shouldn't have engaged in it...

[uptown_urbanist]

I don't think it's fair to call this proof of outer suburban ignorance, but I think it IS ignorant and racist, and in this case, yes, it is occurring in the outer suburbs. I think the chamber is absolutely right to oppose this. To me, it sends the message loud and clear: we are xenophobic and are trying to make a politically-motivated statement that immigrants are not welcome here. I'm sure it will offend many, many American-born, native English speaking people who see it as a sign of bigotry. I think it's understandable that a community expects all formal records or city business to be recorded in English, but to outright ban the translation of such things into another language makes no sense. Obviously there's no need for them to bother doing such translations now, since there sounds like there is no need, but why would anyone want to actively make life harder for their neighbors if their was such a need? Learning a language doesn't come instantly, and is made much harder when one is juggling multiple jobs and trying to adjust to life in a new country. I've spent time around new immigrants, too, and I think it's ridiculous to suggest that today's immigrants are somehow different than those of years past, or that most, or even many, aren't trying to learn.

[ColdRedRain]

Don't like the local people making these types of laws, then don't live in the largest native Anglophonic country in the world.

[Camden Northsider]

As someone that has similarly worked with many local ELL individuals and families of a variety of languages/ethnicities (Somali, Oromo, Amharic, Spanish-speaking, Karen/Burmese, Nepali, Eritrean, Sudanese, Hmong, etc.), I totally agree with SRSMN's comments. I have personally witnessed many persons rapidly progress in their English levels over relatively short periods of time, as well as witnessed just how hard folks work at learning the language when they get here. I have used a lot of translators/interpreters to talk to folks, and in all of my interactions I have NEVER encountered an individual or family make a statement that implies they don't have an interest in rapidly learning the English language- here in MN, it's a necessity.

From what I've read of historical accounts in the Midwest (e.g. the number of publications in multiple ethnic European languages during my grandparents time, stories I've heard of my own families' transition to America and the reluctance of many to learn English several generations back, etc.), I would say the modern American immigrant is working a lot harder and taking the learning of the English language more seriously than many of their predecessors. One should also take into account that, as was probably the case "in the old days", there are a number of immigrants coming today who are pre-literate, e.g. they are not only learning to speak the English language, but learning to read and write for the first time ever- often times at older ages. For these folks, it's going to take some time and be a longer process than those persons that come with a certain level of literacy and/or at a younger age, but I would say they are in the minority of immigrant groups in the cities.

I think there are probably some Spanish-speaking persons in SW United States that may not have an interest in learning or speaking the English language and don't have as much of a need to, but one has to take into account that many of these persons' families have been in the US longer than most Minnesotans of european descent, and have always been Spanish-speakers during that time- so, whose to say they are any more or less American for this?

Regarding the Lino Lakes decision- I concur 100% with Uptown Urbanist's comments on the intention of it. It was not to deal with any current issue and/or to prepare for any budget issues in the future- I doubt they have any residents requesting Spanish (or any other) translation now nor will they likely have to worry about that problem ever...which is what they must really be shooting for by passing thinly veiled BS ordinances such as this one. I hope they don't receive or expect to receive any federal funding, however, as there are federal laws requiring requiring grantees to have LEP plans and provide interpreting/translation assistance when requested that this ordinance would be in direct violation of.

[nick is rulz]

I was utterly shocked to see a white man in his 60s was the one who championed this ordinance.

[marmac]

Originally Posted by Cleaver

English is our official language, learn it or GTFO. How is this even a debate? If the Somalis next door to me can read a stop sign without complaining, the Mexicans can too.

Seens the legal immigrants are the ones making an effort and not complaining

Semms the illegals are the ones who demand we cater to their whims.

[gearedtowardssalad]

Lino Lakes is in Michele Bachmann's Congressional district. This area is obviously the land of the stupid and ill-informed.

[marmac]

No more stupid and ill informed than people who live in a district that voted Ellison in .