Minneapolis/ St. Paul Traffic (Eden Prairie, Minnetonka: how much, neighborhood, buying)

[Isaysos]

Yeah, just because a city is well planned dosn't mean it has to be like NYC. Cities in Canada do a much better job of managing sprawl than we do and enjoy easy commutes for the most part, but there not like NYC either.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Isaysos

Punkerdunker, I agree with you that energy is running out and we are very unsustainable in our planning practices in the U.S. Golfgirl, yes I am currently in Marshall right now and it makes me sick to see all of the Hummers and trucks around there. I guess to some people having big yards, vehicles, and boats in suburban neighborhoods is more important to them than all of the time they spend in traffic, the environment, and their childrens future. I know many people that drive 2 hours plus a day in traffic, I guess some people just love to drive.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions about commute times in the twin cities. Most people I know have a commute of less then 30 minutes. You also have to remember, there isn't a lot of housing available in the cities either. Just because you think people should live in the city, they have to have some place to live. I would venture a guess that in our development alone, if everyone move from here to St. Paul we would take almost every available house in St. Paul currently. Where are people going to live if they all move to 'the city'?

Also, by living where we do, our number one concern for picking this town WAS our kids' future. We wanted to be in a good district with good opportunities for them. Since our kids are very much into band, Rosemount was an obvious choice.

As for the SUV's in Marshall, keep in mind that a lot of families in Marshall have 3,4, 5+ kids and with seat belt laws being what they are large SUV's are their only option. Now, there are several hummers there and they do make me laugh seeing as Marshall is so hilly and the terrain is so difficult to navigate . We always joked that the only hills in Marshall are the speed bumps in town.

[The Icy River Vagabond]

What new report???????

[Minnehahapolitan]

/\ A report from UNC-Charlotte. I think it is total BS. They simply looked at interstates. Anyways, the answer to our problems here ISN'T to add more freeways and lanes. Planners have known for some time that traffic fluxes to meet the road capacity. The answer is alternative forms of transportation. Will people always drive, hell yes. But are alot of people willing to take a bus or a streetcar? Certainly. For the price of the new Crosstown shanigan, they could have built a streetcar down Nicollet from Bridge Square to The Hub, 8 miles away. That would have CUT gross traffic and made 35 a much better road. But MNDOT is stuck in an aged, archaic mentaility. This is compounded by Mr. Bell (who will bend over in a dozen ways to the whims of our tax-cut king governor) A road has no value after it's construction. A streetcar or lightrail serves even those who don't use it. For urbanists, it is an impetus for development, a reliable transportation (buses are simply not) and a badge for the city. For suburbanites, the freeway is cleared of wannabe New Yorkers, Volvo sedans, and Volkswagen vans. You can then take extra buses and but them on another line and make than line that much more reliable and used. Europe has known this for decades, even dingy Latin American countries have better transportation, but OUR money goes to "better roads". You don't have to be some urbanista to be smart about transit. Take a park-and-ride. Live in an inner suburb that still has transit (Edina, SLP, Bloomington, et. cetera) /\ Golfgal, I won't be completely presumptous. You could work in Lakeville. But you remind me of an important point. It is wanton to claim that any child's future was the root cause of exurban flight. Edina, Bloomington, Southwest, even South (yes, on Lake Street) are comparable schools. People will drive 40 miles a day and claim that it is for their child's education. It generally isn't.

[JenLee]

It's well and good to want to take a bus; or use Park and Ride; but when mass transit doesn't even come to some suburbs, one is stuck driving. There is a huge area of Shoreview, Moundsview, Arden Hills, Little Canada, North Oaks, Vadnais heights; and even parts of Roseville that have no mass transit.

Why, you may ask?

It's because the Met Council and Metro Transit *say* that this area doesn't have the population density of other areas of the Twin Cities; so they pulled the bus routes that used to be here 10 years ago. I'm involved with a conservation/transportation group that is trying to raise awareness of such issues; and we've been polling people and asking if they would use alternate forms of transportation if available. We have surveys that people fill out and are collecting names to deliver to Metro Transit later this summer. This is also an area that has a fair number of people who commute to work on bikes; but there really aren't that many commute-friendly bike routes in this area either.

Hopefully, we will be heard soon.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan

/\ A report from UNC-Charlotte. I think it is total BS. They simply looked at interstates. Anyways, the answer to our problems here ISN'T to add more freeways and lanes. Planners have known for some time that traffic fluxes to meet the road capacity. The answer is alternative forms of transportation. Will people always drive, hell yes. But are alot of people willing to take a bus or a streetcar? Certainly. For the price of the new Crosstown shanigan, they could have built a streetcar down Nicollet from Bridge Square to The Hub, 8 miles away. That would have CUT gross traffic and made 35 a much better road. But MNDOT is stuck in an aged, archaic mentaility. This is compounded by Mr. Bell (who will bend over in a dozen ways to the whims of our tax-cut king governor) A road has no value after it's construction. A streetcar or lightrail serves even those who don't use it. For urbanists, it is an impetus for development, a reliable transportation (buses are simply not) and a badge for the city. For suburbanites, the freeway is cleared of wannabe New Yorkers, Volvo sedans, and Volkswagen vans. You can then take extra buses and but them on another line and make than line that much more reliable and used. Europe has known this for decades, even dingy Latin American countries have better transportation, but OUR money goes to "better roads". You don't have to be some urbanista to be smart about transit. Take a park-and-ride. Live in an inner suburb that still has transit (Edina, SLP, Bloomington, et. cetera) /\ Golfgal, I won't be completely presumptous. You could work in Lakeville. But you remind me of an important point. It is wanton to claim that any child's future was the root cause of exurban flight. Edina, Bloomington, Southwest, even South (yes, on Lake Street) are comparable schools. People will drive 40 miles a day and claim that it is for their child's education. It generally isn't.

While I agree that Edina and Bloomington schools are excellent, the Minneapolis schools are not. They have some good programs but the 80 kids that are in the IB program do not make up the majority of the school. The Trib just had an article on the IB programs in the Minneapolis schools and the drop out rate from that program (almost 50%). You also have to consider that in towns like Edina you can't buy anything for under $400,000 and if you find that $400,000 house it is on a major freeway or is falling down.

If people are driving 40 miles a day and it isn't because they picked a town where they want their kids to go to school, what is it? Every parent I know has picked where they live because of they want their kids to go to those schools.

I also agree that a lightrail up Cedar would have been a better use of our transportation dollars. Most people in our neighborhood that commute up Cedar to either the Bloomington area or into Minneapolis would GLADLY take the lightrail. We have discussed this many times.

[Minnehahapolitan]

People live in suburbia because A. they have a mentality which is simply not in accordance with living in a city. Alot of people don't like to live in such close proxmity with others. Fine. They had no right to desimate my city for it. B. They want something they can't get in the city. A big house, a large lot, a lake, a place for their boat, et. al. C. An ultra-nostalgic sense of security (which as of late, seems to be waning. As suburbs diversify and grow poorer, many will find that they are not immune from the problems of a city) There is little that a suburban school will give you that a city school won't if you take the time to look for the right one. Rosemount is a good high school, it is not Phillips Exeter. The suburban schools are a good reason to live there, they are not the deciding factor. The metro is growing, but our "urbanized area" is not. As this proportion becomes greater, we WILL begin to experience the problems that were (and are) associated with Los Angeles, Houston or Atlanta. The Minneapolis I know would not stand for that abysmal quality of life. Finally, light-rail is fifty years off for any ring county. For two reasons. There is not a third of the populations density needed that far out for it to be viable. The fringe suburbs, as you are certainly aware, are crimson conservative. They will pay for roads, but not for some urbanistas transportation ideal. (Our communal loss, but moreso yours) When I lived in Lakeville, they vetoed Met Transit from running lines south of Cedar at 160th. Hopefully your neighbors denote a change of opinion. I doubt, however, that sentiment is generaliable to suburbanites at large. PS. When you say you can't find anything in Edina for <400,000, you are wrong. There are a plethora of condos around the city. They simply don't conform to your view of Edina (or, rather, that of suburbia) How all those people suffer without yards!

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan

There are a plethora of condos around the city. They simply don't conform to your view of Edina (or, rather, that of suburbia) How all those people suffer without yards!

Yes, the condo life is great with little kids or heck big kids even. Again, we will have to agree to disagree but everyone I know has chosen where to live because of schools for their kids.

[Isaysos]

the city schools would be better off if eveyone that had the means to do so didnt flock out to the suburbs in the first place. I dont think everyone would have to live in condos, but if you took Minnetonka or Eden Praire for example, and designed it how the Highland Park area of St. Paul is desinged, instead of how they develop in Minnetonka or Eden Prairie now, you could fit twice as many people in the same area, with a more effient transportation network (with out all of the cul-desacs and bottleneck roads) and you could still have your yard, good schoos, and not have to drive to do everything! You could comfrotably fit the 3 million people in the metro area in an area half of the size. I use Canada as an example again. Google earth Calgary sometime and you can see that there area nice areas, but are just better planned. When things are planned and take up less space, it is much easier to serve by mass transit, so your not stuck in your energy sucking, polluting car or SUV. Thats the point Im trying to get across with this post. We dont need Manhattan type development, just smarter development. Our population is growing to the point that the way we plan is unsustainable and just plain ignorant of our environment and future needs. If we keep at this rate, where are we going to grow our food if the suburbs of Minnapolis go all the way out to (Marshall). People move out the Waconia because its nice to live in a small countryside town. Yes, its great to look at (or whats left of it) when your stuck in your car on Hwy 5

[TimtheGuy]

Originally Posted by Isaysos

Punkerdunker, I agree with you that energy is running out and we are very unsustainable in our planning practices in the U.S. Golfgirl, yes I am currently in Marshall right now and it makes me sick to see all of the Hummers and trucks around there. I guess to some people having big yards, vehicles, and boats in suburban neighborhoods is more important to them than all of the time they spend in traffic, the environment, and their childrens future. I know many people that drive 2 hours plus a day in traffic, I guess some people just love to drive.

OMG...the sky is falling!

We are running out of energy???

It should be of no concern to you that people are driving "Hummers & trucks". Don't like them...don't drive them.

I do love my V-8 4x4 pickup, my V-8 speedboat and my nice yard in the suburbs. I do love to drive too, however, I don't spend much time in traffic.