Minneapolis/ St. Paul Traffic (live, time)

[Isaysos]

Haha, yeah, I completely forgot about MAT. Those are some nice and colorfull busses! Ill keep that in mind when winter comes around. The summer is great to ride my bike around Marshall though (at least if you can avoid the Main Street reconstruction) I especally like the path along Country Club Drive and the Legion Field area. There supposed to construct a path going from Marshall to Camden Park, so that will be awsome!

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan

Traffic Engineering is a college program. People, scientifically, study how you move in your car.

Faulty appeal to authority.

[Minnehahapolitan]

I have, SlyFrog, explained how this works. Why it there is a difference between a race and a mob. I have explained the reasoning behind it. I have argued that my assertion is backed by scientific study and rules surrounding traffic engineering. To draw a parallel, I have told you that the apple falls from the tree. It falls due to gravity and some apples do not fall farther than others. I have said that scientific theory supports the idea of gravity and that Sir. Issac Newton has also witnessed the effects of gravity. What more could possibly be needed to say? Do you want me to stop all the cars on the freeway and study them with you?
Suppose, for a second, that I am wrong. You will add lanes to existing freeways so far as to widen them beyond their footprint. Outer suburbs will have wide roads, inner suburbs will have even wider roads. 494 would be a dozen lanes wide to support demand for it. Metrowide, billions of dollars of properties would be condemned. Billions more would be spent to do actual construction. It would have to be repeated as millions more move to the cities. Freeways would encroach on the communities the currently serve. At what means then, SlyFrog? Are you prepared to sacrifice large areas of the cities and billions of dollars in taxes so you can get to work faster. The lost suburban properties would have a much more adverse effect on suburbs than slow traffic. Remember, this would not be a one time deal. You would be expanding roads for perpetuity. Thats has much more faulty logic involved than you incorrect assumption that I am appealing to some omnipotent authority. Even if I appealed to authority (I cited a source). Even if I am completely wrong (I am not). Even if I am politically motivated (I also am not, and am on record as such). What are you going to do? Widen your God forsaken roads till kingdom come? Making roads to have no traffic would cost every penny this government has. Hope your kids don't need school, or your mother her Social Security, or your police. You want to deride MY logic?

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan

I have, SlyFrog, explained how this works. Why it there is a difference between a race and a mob. I have explained the reasoning behind it. I have argued that my assertion is backed by scientific study and rules surrounding traffic engineering. To draw a parallel, I have told you that the apple falls from the tree. It falls due to gravity and some apples do not fall farther than others. I have said that scientific theory supports the idea of gravity and that Sir. Issac Newton has also witnessed the effects of gravity. What more could possibly be needed to say? Do you want me to stop all the cars on the freeway and study them with you?
Suppose, for a second, that I am wrong. You will add lanes to existing freeways so far as to widen them beyond their footprint. Outer suburbs will have wide roads, inner suburbs will have even wider roads. 494 would be a dozen lanes wide to support demand for it. Metrowide, billions of dollars of properties would be condemned. Billions more would be spent to do actual construction. It would have to be repeated as millions more move to the cities. Freeways would encroach on the communities the currently serve. At what means then, SlyFrog? Are you prepared to sacrifice large areas of the cities and billions of dollars in taxes so you can get to work faster. The lost suburban properties would have a much more adverse effect on suburbs than slow traffic. Remember, this would not be a one time deal. You would be expanding roads for perpetuity. Thats has much more faulty logic involved than you incorrect assumption that I am appealing to some omnipotent authority. Even if I appealed to authority (I cited a source). Even if I am completely wrong (I am not). Even if I am politically motivated (I also am not, and am on record as such). What are you going to do? Widen your God forsaken roads till kingdom come? Making roads to have no traffic would cost every penny this government has. Hope your kids don't need school, or your mother her Social Security, or your police. You want to deride MY logic?

Slippery slope/reductio ad absurdum and appeal to fear.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Isaysos

Haha, yeah, I completely forgot about MAT. Those are some nice and colorfull busses! Ill keep that in mind when winter comes around. The summer is great to ride my bike around Marshall though (at least if you can avoid the Main Street reconstruction) I especally like the path along Country Club Drive and the Legion Field area. There supposed to construct a path going from Marshall to Camden Park, so that will be awsome!

They were supposed to have that constructed about 15 years ago, it seems to never get done. That is one thing that Marshall is really missing is a good bike trail system.

[K-Luv]

Twin Cities traffic is not as bad as other metro areas, but it could be a lot better if the highway systems were constructed to handle more traffic. It seems to me as if though these systems, when built, were designed to handle a certain amount of traffic, with absolutely no forseeable future increase.

In down town MPLS you have like four freeways merging into 94 practiacally all at the same spot. We need more lanes, espescially merging lanes from one freeway to the next.

[Minnehahapolitan]

I don't think more lanes is the answer. Seriously, SlyFrog. Take for example spaghetti junction downtown. People have to merge over two to three lanes of traffic to get to the other freeway. That is dangerous and slow. If they would have built flyovers when the built it originally, there wouldn't be that problem. To expand 94 would take out a large number of city blocks (think Rondo Avenue, I-335, Hiawatha Freeway) and would not correct the root problem. It becomes a question of smart building over big building. Combine an improved freeway with investment in transit (which removes cars from the road in the first place) and you will have the best of both worlds. The city will have convenient transit, and the freeway will be faster and safer.

[Minnehahapolitan]

Want the hell do you want me to say to you? My argument is a slippery slope, because the problem actually IS a slippery slope. Wouldn't it be a wiser investment to funds on education, healthcare, Social Security, police, wildlife, the environment, welfare, food stamps, small corporations, or the f***ing lottery? At least there is a winner in the Powerball. Or should all that money be spent so you can get your ignorant ass to work every morning? I think more highly of thieves. That shows a basic lack of humainty which no Latin term describes. Instead of trying to impress people with your mastery of Latinate debate terms, why don't you answer my questions or actually add something to the debate? You can not see the forest because of its trees. You can not be reasoned with. I can only hope you live in Hudson so I don't have to live in the same state.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by SlyFrog

Slippery slope/reductio ad absurdum and appeal to fear.

It's hard not to fall into logical fallacies in a web forum context. This is not a rigorous scientific paper -- it's a forum intended for informal conversation.

I'm not sure your interjections are adding much to the conversation. :-(

[Isaysos]

Agree to disagree everybody. Although I fear for our future and stongly believe that things can go on the way they are forever, someday, energy shortfalls and population growth are going to force us to change anyway. I just hope that people can change along with these outside forces so we can avoid catastrophie and of course keep Minnesota the best state in the USA. (I know you probaly beg to differ about that rcsteiner)
But what a great thread, I started it to see all of the different opinions, and although you cant change someones mind, cant we all agree that it was exciting?
p.s. I hope there are no hurt feelings among any of us.