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Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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I think queenswake isn't entirely wrong.......I believe Minneapolis is one of (if not THE) worst places for blacks/African Americans in terms of income disparity to whites. I think that IS because we get transplants from the inner cities of Chicago, Gary, Detroit and Kansas City, as well as refugees/immigrants from poor nations such as Liberia, Somalia and Sudan. If you are a working class African American / African and have an education and a drive to work, you should have the same opportunities (or possibly better, respectively) here as you would anywhere out East.
I grew up in Philly (24 years) and lived and worked in Baltimore and DC for almost 12 years. I can say unequivocally that there is more SELF-IMPOSED segregation on the East Coast than in MSP. As the black husband of a white wife with biracial children, I can say with absolute certainty, we have never been treated as well in any other places except for Harford County, Maryland (which we consider home) and here in Alaska.
During the time, we were vacationing in MSP, we never heard one disparaging remark nor did we receive any disapproving looks. As a matter of fact, we were pleasantly surprised at the number of other interracial couples or families that we saw in the Twin Cities. Unfortunately, the only problem/confrontation that we experienced came from a couple of disrespectful, rude and argumentative black employees working at the MOA amusement park but even that event was smoothed over by their boss, a very nice young Somali gentleman who was the epitome of class and professionalism.
We were not familiar with the term "Minnesota nice" until our visit but we fully understand it now and think of the Twin Cities as our home away from home.
All segregation in 2011 in self imposed. Whether it be the east coast, Minneapolis, or anywhere else. People, ESPECIALLY people at the economic bottom of the pyramid, share unique cultures based in race. Hence, they congregate within those cultures. I've dated within the other race (black/white), I won''t say which I am, but I know better than those who have not participated in interracial dating, or otherwise did not grow up in the other culture, just how different these cultures are.
Lower class black people and lower class white people don't feel comfortable living with each other in significant numbers. That is never going to change. The nature of capitalism dictates that, by the numbers, most people are lower class.
People tolerate certain levels of integration until it becomes too much for them and then they move. How many white families do you see living in all black neighborhoods? Around here, in Philadelphia, it's none. It would be excessively dangerous for them to do so here. No one argues that. Heck, its excessively dangerous for whites to walk through all black neighborhoods here. I've been robbed at gunpoint twice myself.
People who talk of self imposed segregation like it's unnatural tend to never have experienced a city where race numbers are close to 50/50 for blacks and whites. In Philadelphia, where I live, blacks are the majority. The city is much, much different than it was, by a lot of measures, then when whites were the majority. That's not racist. Both subjective experience from living here fore a lifetime and certain data points prove it. Also, the Op has a persecution complex if he thinks that the vast seas of ghettos here are a 'government reservation' for blacks. What he's actually saying is that he doesn't enjoy the lower class black cultural environment or geographic locales here. I'm not judging that, but his perception of what keeps blacks and whites separated here is completely off. The same will occur when the races reach significantly similar numbers in any city. What he wants is to move where blacks don't exist in as significant numbers (just a little - in his estimation) and so significant self-segregation hasn't occurred yet. He wants to be in a city where the black population is under the radar because they don't exist in enough numbers. Here, black people are free to move wherever they wish, and get more city union jobs then do whites (extra points on tests - but that's another debate). There is no societal disadvantage within the city keeping blacks in these areas. Many move out. Many stay because that's where they are comfortable. Many stay because they can't move out, as many whites can't move out of their lower class neighborhoods due to economic limitations.
So, when people talk of 'tolerance', they are speaking on a relative level. Yes, they will be 'tolerant' until a certain threshold of integration is reached, and then the numbers will shift as people self segregate again into neighborhoods in which they are more socially comfortable. That's the way that it works. Anyone who disputes this, I would ask as to what their experience was. Unless you've lived in a 50/50 city, you are really only speaking from a notion of the way that you wish the world worked. As the integration continues in Minneapolis, expect to see more resistance to it in the form of verbal opinions as well as people moving out. If a black person wants to slow to prevent this process in the Twin Cities, then raise your children to be as culturally similar to the majority as you possibly can - rejecting what most people perceive as 'urban black culture'. This isn't a PC opinion, but I beleive that it best reflects the reality of human nature.
Not to bring everyone down, but Minneapolis is a fairly segregated city. Just because there are a lot of white liberals who all hang out with each other and get "offended" when other people say racist things doesn't mean the city is not segregated. The fact that Minneapolis is only about 15% black helps make this less of a deal.
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Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat
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As for walkability, Uptown probably makes the most sense for what you want.
Correct. It's also not just about class, considering many areas that are affordable in Mpls still aren't integrated. And I'd agree Uptown is best for walkability. Downtown is okay too, but it shuts down early even for Mpls, and getting groceries there can be a beast. No, the Target grocery section does not count as a grocery store.
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Originally Posted by rogead
To most people here, the concept of racism is intolerable. But, race-based assumptions and reactions are as typical here as they are in other cities. A friend from Little Rock once told me that the difference between Arkansas and Minnesota is that, in Arkansas they call you n***** to your face , while in Minnesota, they do so behind your back.
They do both in Minnesota. I've been on this blue Earth for a while, and have lived a few places, and was honestly shocked that more than once my husband and I had racist comments directed at us right to our faces. By strangers! I was shocked that I was shocked, because I don't believe racism evaporated into thin air, but I thought everyone had good enough sense to say that kind of s**t behind closed doors to their other racist friends. MN is the only place I've been in my entire life where people have made blatantly racist comments to my face. Absolutely unreal.
To get back to the OP. I'm from Los Angeles, currently residing in Chicago, and lived in Minneapolis for four years, so I know a little about adjusting to a small town from a big city. If you are an urban creature, you are likely going to struggle with Minneapolis. First, rumors of its racial integration are widely exaggerated. Not to belabor this, but let's be honest -- the city is over 70% white. There aren't even enough non-white people numerically for the city to be well-integrated and diverse racially. Even if all of the non-white people mixed in well in white neighborhoods, there would still have to be large pockets of near all-white areas due to the numbers alone.
But that's hardly the bulk of the adjustment you'll have to make. Surely no one who moves to Mpls will be surprised to find that the city is mainly white. The city is slow-paced, public transit leaves much to be desired (I say this as someone who lived downtown the entire time I was there), the food scene might as well not exist, and good luck if you ever plan on doing anything --anything at all-- past 2 am. I was mainly fine with everything shutting down early, as in my grizzled old age I am seldom out in the wee hours, but it's very bizarre to see an entire city shutting down (with the exception of bars) at 10pm, and even then, what little else is open closes down promptly at 2.`
Mpls tends to attract a lot of people from other small towns in the state and surrounding states, so it is viewed as a step up from Owatonna, or wherever, but if you've lived in a city like NYC I am almost certain moving to Mpls will feel like you just stepped into Mayberry. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but for all its claims of liberalism, the place has a very small-towny mindset. It's very old fashioned and polite, and everyone knows everyone else and went to the same five schools, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but may be hard to adjust to if you come from a place that is home to so many people from around the nation and globe that it gets boring meeting the same person over and over again.
I grew weary pretty quickly of bland food, and needed to go some place where the people talked fast, and there was no such thing as “Minnesota nice,” which, btw, is a cutesy euphemism that loosely translates to “People here will be irritatingly passive/aggressive in order to avoid any semblance of confrontation.” If you're anything like me, you'll start to miss Indian food that’s actually hot, reliable public trans that runs past midnight, people who are straight-shooters, people who aren’t white, things to do at night, cab drivers who speed (Mpls is the only place I’ve been where I wanted a cab driver to go faster), good shopping that has nothing to do with the mall, and urban landscapes. My husband and I moved to Mpls more or less on a whim, and I liked it when I visited, but I realized soon that all my gripes about big cities (congestion, rude people) were well worth the advantages. Small towns weren't for me, and my hub and I both decided independently to get out of Dodge. I think Mpls is a great place to visit, and is downright beautiful in some places, but is tough to live in for a city person.
Correct. It's also not just about class, considering many areas that are affordable in Mpls still aren't integrated. And I'd agree Uptown is best for walkability. Downtown is okay too, but it shuts down early even for Mpls, and getting groceries there can be a beast. No, the Target grocery section does not count as a grocery store.
They do both in Minnesota. I've been on this blue Earth for a while, and have lived a few places, and was honestly shocked that more than once my husband and I had racist comments directed at us right to our faces. By strangers! I was shocked that I was shocked, because I don't believe racism evaporated into thin air, but I thought everyone had good enough sense to say that kind of s**t behind closed doors to their other racist friends. MN is the only place I've been in my entire life where people have made blatantly racist comments to my face. Absolutely unreal.
To get back to the OP. I'm from Los Angeles, currently residing in Chicago, and lived in Minneapolis for four years, so I know a little about adjusting to a small town from a big city. If you are an urban creature, you are likely going to struggle with Minneapolis. First, rumors of its racial integration are widely exaggerated. Not to belabor this, but let's be honest -- the city is over 70% white. There aren't even enough non-white people numerically for the city to be well-integrated and diverse racially. Even if all of the non-white people mixed in well in white neighborhoods, there would still have to be large pockets of near all-white areas due to the numbers alone.
But that's hardly the bulk of the adjustment you'll have to make. Surely no one who moves to Mpls will be surprised to find that the city is mainly white. The city is slow-paced, public transit leaves much to be desired (I say this as someone who lived downtown the entire time I was there), the food scene might as well not exist, and good luck if you ever plan on doing anything --anything at all-- past 2 am. I was mainly fine with everything shutting down early, as in my grizzled old age I am seldom out in the wee hours, but it's very bizarre to see an entire city shutting down (with the exception of bars) at 10pm, and even then, what little else is open closes down promptly at 2.`
Mpls tends to attract a lot of people from other small towns in the state and surrounding states, so it is viewed as a step up from Owatonna, or wherever, but if you've lived in a city like NYC I am almost certain moving to Mpls will feel like you just stepped into Mayberry. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but for all its claims of liberalism, the place has a very small-towny mindset. It's very old fashioned and polite, and everyone knows everyone else and went to the same five schools, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but may be hard to adjust to if you come from a place that is home to so many people from around the nation and globe that it gets boring meeting the same person over and over again.
I grew weary pretty quickly of bland food, and needed to go some place where the people talked fast, and there was no such thing as “Minnesota nice,” which, btw, is a cutesy euphemism that loosely translates to “People here will be irritatingly passive/aggressive in order to avoid any semblance of confrontation.” If you're anything like me, you'll start to miss Indian food that’s actually hot, reliable public trans that runs past midnight, people who are straight-shooters, people who aren’t white, things to do at night, cab drivers who speed (Mpls is the only place I’ve been where I wanted a cab driver to go faster), good shopping that has nothing to do with the mall, and urban landscapes. My husband and I moved to Mpls more or less on a whim, and I liked it when I visited, but I realized soon that all my gripes about big cities (congestion, rude people) were well worth the advantages. Small towns weren't for me, and my hub and I both decided independently to get out of Dodge. I think Mpls is a great place to visit, and is downright beautiful in some places, but is tough to live in for a city person.
But I'm just one gal. Your mileage may vary.
Excellent post!
You said everything I was either feeling or thinking with regards to Minneapolis. I had a favorable reaction to Minneapolis when I first arrived here, but after a few months, it's time for me to leave. You basically gave great examples of why Minneapolis simply can't be compared to other larger cities (like LA, Chicago, Philly, DC, etc.) Like you implied, the urbanity that does exist in Minneapolis is not overwhelming at all, and does leave alot to be desired. I lived in Philadelphia 5 years ago, and I might return there (basically for the same reasons you and your husband moved to Chicago). I am also a city person, and Minneapolis is not working for me.
You said everything I was either feeling or thinking with regards to Minneapolis. I had a favorable reaction to Minneapolis when I first arrived here, but after a few months, it's time for me to leave. You basically gave great examples of why Minneapolis simply can't be compared to other larger cities (like LA, Chicago, Philly, DC, etc.) Like you implied, the urbanity that does exist in Minneapolis is not overwhelming at all, and does leave alot to be desired. I lived in Philadelphia 5 years ago, and I might return there (basically for the same reasons you and your husband moved to Chicago). I am also a city person, and Minneapolis is not working for me.
I thought about moving to the Twin Cities, and paid a visit on a weekend in December 2006. The place reminded me of a larger Des Moines, which makes it VERY unattractive to me. So you have skywalks, and Prince is from the area. OOOKAY then.
The "liberalism" is actually political moderation in most areas, and the downtown area was stunningly lifeless at night (ON A WEEKEND!! LOL). Needless to say, I stopped talking about it afterwards...lol.
I thought about moving to the Twin Cities, and paid a visit on a weekend in December 2006. The place reminded me of a larger Des Moines, which makes it VERY unattractive to me. So you have skywalks, and Prince is from the area. OOOKAY then.
The "liberalism" is actually political moderation in most areas, and the downtown area was stunningly lifeless at night (ON A WEEKEND!! LOL). Needless to say, I stopped talking about it afterwards...lol.
Did you have a chance to go to Uptown? I'll be making a visit on similar grounds -- possible relocation. From my research, although there is a downtown -- most of the night life seems to extend on the neighborhoods similar to Pittsburgh.
Reading both of these posts above, I can't believe we're talking about the same city(ies). Oh well, I'll make sure to post my observations as well.
Minneapolis is certainly not one of the BIG cities, but when someone questions the food scene ("nonexistent") and says that they can only find bland food, I've got to wonder just how much they actually got OUT while living here; you're talking about Minneapolis circa 2011, right? Because if so, the answer is simple: don't want bland food, just go to good restaurants. There are plenty of them around. If you choose to hang out at Perkins, that's your call. Because the reality is that the food scene these days is actually pretty good. It wasn't always that way, but we're talking about living here NOW.
As for downtown, some parts are pretty dead on weekends, other parts more lively. Like many downtowns, some areas are pretty quiet. For the most part, though, I would say that the neighborhoods are more important than the downtown as far as general street life. If you're into clubs and bars, though, I think downtown is still one of the major destinations. Check out the Warehouse District or somewhere.
I prefer a bigger city, but there are certainly plenty of reasons for even die-hard city people to appreciate Minneapolis. It's no NYC or LA, but it still has a tremendous amount to offer for its size. (and to point out the obvious, one major benefit: cost of living is WAY cheaper than in the big cities.)
How charmingly dismissive. Care to share where these spots of downtown Minneapolis are that are so vibrant at night?
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Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
Minneapolis is certainly not one of the BIG cities, but when someone questions the food scene ("nonexistent") and says that they can only find bland food, I've got to wonder just how much they actually got OUT while living here; you're talking about Minneapolis circa 2011, right? Because if so, the answer is simple: don't want bland food, just go to good restaurants. There are plenty of them around. If you choose to hang out at Perkins, that's your call. Because the reality is that the food scene these days is actually pretty good. It wasn't always that way, but we're talking about living here NOW.
I'm talking about Mpls from 2007-2011, so while that might not count for right NOW, I'd say that was a pretty recent experience. I do love your characterization of everyone disappointed with the Twin Cities' restaurant scene, though. "If you were underwhelmed by the food in Mpls, surely you were eating at Perkins!" Err, no. This town just isn't much for good restaurants, is all, particularly when compared to bigger cities. Two things I gave up on in Minneapolis entirely were sushi and spicy food. After having dined at what seems to be every sushi joint in the city, I just plain quit. Similarly, my tireless search for spicy food, despite being flooded with recommendations left and right, ended with my head hung low and my taste buds sad. We couldn't even find good spices in grocery stores, despite trying every major store and dingy corner ethnic market around. My hub and I actually nicknamed a cabinet in our kitchen the "spice graveyard" which is where our woefully inadequate cayenne pepper went to die. I had my mom ship me a box of the stuff. Mpls is good for meat, though. If you want an elk burger, the Twin Cities is all yours, but it still manages to be a place where you can't even find Thai food that's hot. Thai!
I'll skip my boring personal anecdotes about the gripe sessions I've gotten into with other big city transplants, restaurant owners and chefs about the sad state of food in MN, but you'll just have to take my word for it when I say my idea of good food has never been served within throwing distance of a Perkins.
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As for downtown, some parts are pretty dead on weekends, other parts more lively. Like many downtowns, some areas are pretty quiet. For the most part, though, I would say that the neighborhoods are more important than the downtown as far as general street life.
This I agree with. People give downtowns everywhere too much credit. Hell, even The Loop here in big, bad Chicago isn't exciting past 8pm or on weekends. The neighborhoods are where the life is. This is true of every city I've lived in. When I lived in downtown Mpls, friends in Uptown and NE always seemed to have more going on in their hoods at night than I did which I at times envied. But then again, I walked to work everyday, so it was a wash.
So look, Mpls is fine, but it's a little dishonest for the die-hard hometowners to say things like, "Oh, you're a city boy having lived in NYC? Mpls will feel like home!" Dude, come on.
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