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A car might be "necessary" to get the area, but in many cases it isn't needed to explore the area itself.
I would speculate that many urbanites choose to remain ignorant about life in suburbia because they don't want to find out that they might be wrong in their preconceptions.
Perhaps. Probably also has a lot to do with the fact that the whole point of living in a truly urban area, one could say, is that everything you would ever need is conveniently very close, so there's never a need to venture out to the sticks.
Perhaps. Probably also has a lot to do with the fact that the whole point of living in a truly urban area, one could say, is that everything you would ever need is conveniently very close, so there's never a need to venture out to the sticks.
I don't think that's the issue. To me, it seems that is a question of relative pros and cons of central city living versus suburban living. One is not perfect, but you do have to make choices. Most surburanites don't have the option of walking to a grocery store like I do. Most do not (yet) have the option of riding transit to the Mall of America. Most have to come into town for big events in pop culture and the arts.
What do they have? Most get quieter neighborhoods. Most get fewer criminals walking their streets with guns looking for someone to rob. They get ( generally) bigger lots for their homes. They might pay lower taxes, often do. In return, they have some expenses that are higher.
So it is a series of tradeoffs. And it means everyone can find his or her own set of ideal tradeoffs. We weren't all meant to have the same lifestyle.
A car might be "necessary" to get the area, but in many cases it isn't needed to explore the area itself.
I would speculate that many urbanites choose to remain ignorant about life in suburbia because they don't want to find out that they might be wrong in their preconceptions.
Do you REALLY believe that many "urbanites" are "ignorant" about suburbia? I live in the city, and I really don't find that to be true -- most people around here have close friends or family scattered around in local suburbs, work or have worked in them, or in many cases, have lived in various suburbs themselves. I think most people DO spend time in the suburbs (although perhaps are not closely familiar with all of them, but it's a big, sprawling metro area, and I think it's also fair to say that most suburban residents haven't spent time in all city neighborhoods, for that matter) -- just because someone lives in a city doesn't mean that they live under a rock. People who choose to live in the city have friends, go to weddings, sometimes need to head to the 'burbs for specialist doctor visits, to go shopping, to explore new areas, to go to parties, visit friends, etc. GG addressed that comment to me, but it was intended as a rude insult to discount my opinion. It is not based in fact, as yes, I have spent a great deal of time in various Twin Cities suburbs. Not ALL of them, and I don't comment about the ones that I am not familiar with (I don't know anyone in Cottage Grove, for example, and haven't been there in years, so refrain from CG-centered conversations as I obviously have nothing relevant to say), but to constantly accuse that I never leave the city is 100% wrong, and I greatly resent the ongoing attempts made to blow off my opinion based on groundless accusations rather than actually engaging in debate about the individual locations.
I can only assume that those who harbor the belief that people live their lives within the boundaries of their individual municipalities and never leave must, in fact, do that themselves. Otherwise why would they have such low expectations for others? I don't assume that because someone lives in, say, Apple Valley, that they NEVER come into the city, or, for that matter, never visit Brooklyn Park, or White Bear Lake, or Minnetonka. In fact, I would think it was pretty unusual if that person really did spend all of their time within their own suburban boundaries. It's a big metro area, and I think over the course of a year most people cover a fair amount of suburban territory. I certainly do, and I assume that others do, too.
That said, I think it's easier for people who are so inclined to avoid going into the city than it is for the city-resident to venture into the suburbs; here in the Twin Cities the core cities are relatively small, so it's possible that someone who lives and works in the suburbs has fewer reasons to go into the city if they prefer not to. I'm sure most still do for the theater, sports games, museum visits, restaurants, etc., but it's also fairly easy to get to those types of destinations without even driving through many city residential neighborhoods. In contrast, I think the average city resident here is realistically going to have many coworkers and friends who live in the suburbs, as the majority of Twin Cities residents DO live in suburbs. So even if they can fulfill all their daily needs within their own neighborhood (or at least within city limits), they're still probably going to find themselves in the suburbs to visit family or friends. There are a few hard-core "urbanites" who have the most negative things to say about ALL suburbs and who make sweeping generalizations, but in my experience they are also the most likely to be people who grew up in the suburbs and later made the move to a more urban environment (what's that saying about the zeal of a convert?). Most people have more nuanced views, and have developed their own personal preferences after years of spending time in a variety of environments.
For what it's worth, I think most people have a similiar vision in mind if someone says "stereotypical suburb." Just like they have a certain image in mind if you say "stereotypical urban (or "inner city") neighborhood. SOME suburbs around here do fit that mold, just as SOME city neighborhoods fit the urban stereotype. That doesn't mean that all do, and it is important to acknowledge that there is an incredible range of neighborhood types, and city/suburb boundaries don't tell the full story.
The great irony on this board is that the regulars most likely to make sweeping statements about both "the suburbs" (as one group) or "the city" (all neighborhoods also lumped together) lives in a suburb, and should, I think, realize full well that just the fact that suburb X and suburb Y are both technically suburbs doesn't mean that they have anything in common beyond that. Yet the idea that "all" suburbs have better schools and are safer than all city locations comes up time and time again on this board, despite all evidence to the contrary. In 2012 looking at big lump "suburbs" as one entity simply doesn't accurately reflect what's going on out there.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 04-15-2012 at 09:20 PM..
My doctor practices in North Oaks. I live in S. Minneapolis. I've mapped out a route from home to his office involving a bus to Roseville and a bike the rest of the way. MOST of the distance isn't even on roads where cars drive. So I don't really get why some people think biking in the 'burbs is impossible. The state of Minnesota has done what I think is a good job in making safe biking a metro phenomenon. Frankly, I think biking on Lake Street, Franklin, Nicollet, etc are far riskier. You are caught between the cars in the lane to the left and parked cars that might open a door every second. My solution is a combination of residential streets and bike paths. There are more miles of bike paths in suburbia than in the big cities. I can understand a suburbanite who just doesn't like the exercise. But get over they mythology that suburban biking is about nothing but major highways loaded with cars. As a lifelong city dweller, I ditched that mirage a long time back.
I think many people don't think biking in the suburbs is impossible. But I think there are some conceptions that have varying amounts of credibility.
Biking in the city and suburbs are very different. I've biked in both places as well as in my hometown area of Duluth and many other less urban areas. Cities use biking as an alternative transportation method. In part, I feel this is self selection. I mean, just how peaceful is a bike ride down Hennepin or Franklin or Lake? Biking in many suburbs, meanwhile, has taken the more leisurely approach: it's set up much more for recreational use. That means in many places, you aren't necessarily following a road specifically. There are fewer destinations and those destinations on always on your path.
I think the safety of biking depends on where you are. Much of the city is safe for biking. We have bike lanes, bike boulevards, shared lanes (I'm surprised by how well this works on Hennepin downtown), quiet residential streets, etc. I live on the west side of the Marcy-Holmes neighborhood and bike to the U. But instead of using the busy University Avenue/4th Street to get to and from (which I'd be comfortable with, as they have bike lanes I've used), I bike about a block away from my apartment and I'm on the 5th Street bicycle boulevard...I take that all the way to the 15th Avenue (rarely even running into traffic, who are always courteous), ride for about 2 blocks to campus (on a bike lane) and boom...I'm there. If I want to get downtown, I can take the Stone Arch Bridge and bike a few blocks on fairly quiet streets until I get to Nicollet (where my only competition are buses and a few taxis) or Hennepin (where I can take up an entire lane if I so please). I really rarely feel threatened by traffic. If I do, there's always a parallel street that's quiet nearby.
The suburbs can be just as easy, but I think if there is a problem then that problem is typically larger...it really depends on how the suburb is developed. Older suburbs fair better, I think, because they largely follow a grid. That makes getting to places much easier. If it's a newer-style suburb, then many of them follow a model of major road that leads to twisty-turny roads in developments. I think having to bike on these (frequently pretty fast-moving) is much scarier than being in the city. I actually feel like I'm impeding using these types of roads, unlike in the city, where I feel like I'm part of traffic.
It really depends and each style has their own merits. I do both and enjoy them, but my preference obviously lays with the city-style.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner
A car might be "necessary" to get the area, but in many cases it isn't needed to explore the area itself.
I would speculate that many urbanites choose to remain ignorant about life in suburbia because they don't want to find out that they might be wrong in their preconceptions.
Arguably, the same could be said of suburbanites. Many urban-dwelling people (myself included) lived outside the city before moving there. My conceptions aren't built on crazy ideas...I've lived a suburban lifestyle before! My conceptions of both the city and suburbs are from living and visiting both types and weighing the pros and cons. There are some things the city excels at and other places where it falls short of the suburbs.
Perhaps. Probably also has a lot to do with the fact that the whole point of living in a truly urban area, one could say, is that everything you would ever need is conveniently very close, so there's never a need to venture out to the sticks.
There isn't even a grocery store in downtown Minneapolis. How can you say that everything is convenient? How about a hardware store? Target is downtown but no where near most of the residential neighborhoods. How about your dr, is that office within walking distance? Your church? It's a myth that 'everything' is within walking distance in the urban setting too. You still need to take the bus for a fair amount of what you need/do. I, however, live about a mile or less from everything I just posted. So, who has the more walkable life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever
I don't think that's the issue. To me, it seems that is a question of relative pros and cons of central city living versus suburban living. One is not perfect, but you do have to make choices. Most surburanites don't have the option of walking to a grocery store like I do. Most do not (yet) have the option of riding transit to the Mall of America. Most have to come into town for big events in pop culture and the arts.
What do they have? Most get quieter neighborhoods. Most get fewer criminals walking their streets with guns looking for someone to rob. They get ( generally) bigger lots for their homes. They might pay lower taxes, often do. In return, they have some expenses that are higher.
So it is a series of tradeoffs. And it means everyone can find his or her own set of ideal tradeoffs. We weren't all meant to have the same lifestyle.
See, this is what we are talking about, I don't know of a suburb that doesn't have bus transportation and can get everywhere they need to taking public transportation. Sure, it takes longer, but it is available. How far do you walk to the grocery store? Mine is 6 blocks away...
There isn't even a grocery store in downtown Minneapolis. How can you say that everything is convenient? How about a hardware store? Target is downtown but no where near most of the residential neighborhoods. How about your dr, is that office within walking distance? Your church? It's a myth that 'everything' is within walking distance in the urban setting too. You still need to take the bus for a fair amount of what you need/do. I, however, live about a mile or less from everything I just posted. So, who has the more walkable life?
See, this is what we are talking about, I don't know of a suburb that doesn't have bus transportation and can get everywhere they need to taking public transportation. Sure, it takes longer, but it is available. How far do you walk to the grocery store? Mine is 6 blocks away...
That's why in the past I've considered uptown more livable and walkable than downtown, and have usually suggested uptown for those posting on here looking for a true urban neighborhood. But downtown will have two large grocery stores within a year (Lunds and Whole Foods), so the sun is quickly setting on that issue (Lunds should be open in about 6 weeks).
My doctor is 3 blocks away. I'm not superstitious, so no idea about churches beyond that there are a couple in the area somewhere. I have Rainbow, Lunds, and Kowalskis within 6 blocks. There's an Ace Hardware 2 blocks away and Bryant Hardware is also within walking distance. I can get on a bus and be most destination-rich places in the city in under 30 minutes, and that's during more than just the typical commuter hours. You really don't want to go tit-for-tat, if you want to keep your suburbs-have-everything-the-city-has delusion going.
That's why in the past I've considered uptown more livable and walkable than downtown, and have usually suggested uptown for those posting on here looking for a true urban neighborhood. But downtown will have two large grocery stores within a year (Lunds and Whole Foods), so the sun is quickly setting on that issue (Lunds should be open in about 6 weeks).
My doctor is 3 blocks away. I'm not superstitious, so no idea about churches beyond that there are a couple in the area somewhere. I have Rainbow, Lunds, and Kowalskis within 6 blocks. There's an Ace Hardware 2 blocks away and Bryant Hardware is also within walking distance. I can get on a bus and be most destination-rich places in the city in under 30 minutes, and that's during more than just the typical commuter hours. You really don't want to go tit-for-tat, if you want to keep your suburbs-have-everything-the-city-has delusion going.
I can hop on a bus and be in downtown in under 40 minutes if I wanted...
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,015,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever
I don't think that's the issue. To me, it seems that is a question of relative pros and cons of central city living versus suburban living. One is not perfect, but you do have to make choices. Most surburanites don't have the option of walking to a grocery store like I do. Most do not (yet) have the option of riding transit to the Mall of America. Most have to come into town for big events in pop culture and the arts.
I had much of that when I lived in east Bloomington. I had a decent grocery store literally across the street (as well as a Subway and a pizza place), I was within walking distance of the Met Center and then the MoA, I had a nice park and biking trails just down the hill from me, etc.
You're right, tho. It's a series of trade-offs.
Last edited by rcsteiner; 04-16-2012 at 10:46 AM..
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,015,684 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
Do you REALLY believe that many "urbanites" are "ignorant" about suburbia?
From the comments I read from some of the people who identify as such on both this board and the Atlanta board, yes. I believe that those people, at least, have limited exposure to actually living in a suburb. Either that, or they are making sweeping comments without actually thinking about the topic at hand.
Of course, most folks are more reasonable, and they realize that there are as many different flavors of suburbs ... and even flavors of neighborhood within suburbs ... as there are flavors of neighborhoods inside the core city.
I've lived in east Minnetonka, south Eden Prairie, and east Bloomington, and those three locations had very little in common even though all three were second-tier Twin Cities suburbia. The location I'm in now in NW Atlanta is very similar geographically and in terms of housing development to the Minnetonka location where I grew up. More so than the Minnetonka location is to the other two. I guess I wanted to live in my parents house.
From the comments I read from some of the people who identify as such on both this board and the Atlanta board, yes. I believe that those people, at least, have limited exposure to actually living in a suburb.
More people live in suburbs than in cities and rural areas combined. Current city-dwellers know what the suburbs are like because the majority of them grew up in the suburbs. That's certainly how I know what the suburbs are like.
Can you walk everywhere in the city? No. But it's silly to argue that the suburbs, in general, have the same walkability as cities, in general. This isn't something that we just don't have enough information to determine whether or not it's true. Higher density=greater walkability. (Caveat! Of course I'm not saying that every urban area is more walkable than every suburban area, but it is true on average.)
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