Mpls Southwest #1 High School....Again (Minneapolis, Eden Prairie: home, look for a job, buying)
Minneapolis - St. PaulTwin Cities
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Our kids will have enough credits to easily double major, maybe triple depending on if they stick with their current intended majors or not in 4 years as well. At most better schools, IB or AP alone doesn't afford you that option because so many schools are just not granting credit like they used to for those classes alone. We have also found that the PESO in most other states doesn't work as well for that as it does in MN because they don't have the option to take classes through the universities, just he community colleges and a lot of colleges won't take those credits in transfer (for the better schools). One "highly selective" school we visited doesn't take PESO credits at all, except from MN if the classes were taken through the U of MN or one of the state universities (but won't take any community college credits).
Re: double and triple majors. That depends on how closely they are related. Chemistry and biology are easily related but not biology and business.
Re: classes not transferring. My son got accepted to a top 10 university (or top 20 depending on the ranking site). None of his PSEO credits transferred. It wouldn't matter if it was from a Community College, from the UofMN or Stanford. His colleges approach is to take several placement exams. The only way to bypass the class is to test out at his pending college. Considering he was a college tutor for chemistry, calc, and biology while in high school, I suspect he will pass those tests as he also tests nationally in the 99 percentile on those final exams. But he also wants to test out of the English comps and foreign languages. It's a full ride (tuition, books, room and board) so the $$'s and cents doesn't matter as much as it would if he had to pay. Our neighbor was accepted into Purdue and Notre Dame. Notre Dame would not accept his PSEO classes while Purdue would. He is going to Purdue.
students "on track" for success in math
Southwest: 75.8%, Edina: 84.5%, Minnetonka: 80.0%
students "on track" for success in reading
Southwest: 50.8%, Edina: 72.7%, Minnetonka: 76.7%
If my kid's high school has 50% of the parents or students that don't care they will drag down the averages. Blame it on specific cultures or family income etc etc. All I know is our high school won't be ranked at the top because a certain percentage of kids are coasting. Of course I have no interest in living in an area where there are burnt out teachers that have to deal with gang related activities or underfunded schools. But 95% of the metro area doesn't have that concern. Therefore as long as the classes that my kids take are filled with motivated students inside that same school, I don't give a rats rear-end about how the school "ranks". I really REALLY care about my kids MCA test scores, their quality of education, and opportunities.
People get all riled up about the "quality of education" and relocated to boundaries where they think they are going to get a superior education. I get it if you want to wrestle so you relocate to Apple Valley or want an incredible band experience so you buy a home in Rosemount. But to come on C-D and profess that the metro area ranking is important is hogwash IF you dig deeper.
As an example, our neighbors drove to Benilde-St. Margaret's because they were convinced that spending $20K/year for their two kids would create an advantage for them. I saw the end result. Personally, I think they wasted $60K. I heard how amazing Benilde-St. Margaret's was and how awful the Anoka district was. Did they realize who their audience was? Speaking of statistics and comparing quality, I'd be happy to compare the end results of our kids versus theirs. Whatever floats their boat. We happily chose the "lousy" Anoka District education. As I have said before, so long as the school is properly funded and you intentionally selected motivated teachers, the rest is up to the family.
Which high school you attend won't open ANY doors for you. If they did, I'd play the game. Which college you attend will open doors I recognize that fact. In conclusion, the FAMILY CULTURE dictates how well a student is stretched. I am positively convinced that if I sent our kids to Edina or any other "highly rated" high school, the end result would have been the same. My kids would not have been "smarter" or have gone any farther. In fact, there are advantages of going outside of the best ranked schools where more students are battling to be #1. That's because being the top dog opens up doors and allows for more opportunities to make teams and get scholarships that could not happen if you that same student went to a meg-school like Wayzata. People put waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much emphasis on school ranking.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 05-15-2012 at 08:08 AM..
Or that there are people out there that don't put any stock into faulty data and limited information to rate an entire school....look on any other board here about this same topic and you will see the same disbelief with these "rankings". They evaluate minimal data and even then the numbers don't pan out when you are comparing 50 kids at one school to hundreds at others....
ALthough it's tough to really take seriously the opinion of someone who insists on continuously using incorrect information (the oft-cited, and oft-corrected, repetition of the erroneous "50 kids" statement, for one). If you want to have others take your opinions more seriously, you should consider working with the correct numbers.
If my kid's high school has 50% of the parents or students that don't care they will drag down the averages. Blame it on specific cultures or family income etc etc. All I know is our high school won't be ranked at the top because a certain percentage of kids are coasting. Of course I have no interest in living in an area where there are burnt out teachers that have to deal with gang related activities or underfunded schools. But 95% of the metro area doesn't have that concern. Therefore as long as the classes that my kids take are filled with motivated students inside that same school, I don't give a rats rear-end about how the school "ranks". I really REALLY care about my kids MCA test scores, their quality of education, and opportunities.
People get all riled up about the "quality of education" and relocated to boundaries where they think they are going to get a superior education. I get it if you want to wrestle so you relocate to Apple Valley or want an incredible band experience so you buy a home in Rosemount. But to come on C-D and profess that the metro area ranking is important is hogwash IF you dig deeper.
As an example, our neighbors drove to Benilde-St. Margaret's because they were convinced that spending $20K/year for their two kids would create an advantage for them. I saw the end result. Personally, I think they wasted $60K. I heard how amazing Benilde-St. Margaret's was and how awful the Anoka district was. Did they realize who their audience was? Speaking of statistics and comparing quality, I'd be happy to compare the end results of our kids versus theirs. Whatever floats their boat. We happily chose the "lousy" Anoka District education. As I have said before, so long as the school is properly funded and you intentionally selected motivated teachers, the rest is up to the family.
Which high school you attend won't open ANY doors for you. If they did, I'd play the game. Which college you attend will open doors I recognize that fact. In conclusion, the FAMILY CULTURE dictates how well a student is stretched. I am positively convinced that if I sent our kids to Edina or any other "highly rated" high school, the end result would have been the same. My kids would not have been "smarter" or have gone any farther. In fact, there are advantages of going outside of the best ranked schools where more students are battling to be #1. That's because being the top dog opens up doors and allows for more opportunities to make teams and get scholarships that could not happen if you that same student went to a meg-school like Wayzata. People put waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much emphasis on school ranking.
I have been saying all of this for quite some time. My only disagreement would be that the guidance counselors at some of the top prep schools (and I am talking elite East Coast prep schools) really can open doors for you, where you may not have those contacts at a typical public school.
I am watching with bemusement as my sister-in-law is fighting tooth and nail to get her daughter into the "right" MSP open enrollment kindergarten and wondering if it is really worth all that trouble. And conversely they are watching with bemusement as my kids navigate the "horrible, awful" TX public school system. I have told my husband the kids probably have a better chance at an Ivy League now than they did back in MN for the "top dog" reasons you mention. They are way ahead of most of their peers and hopefully will maintain that edge throughout their school career. Top 8% get automatic admission to UT which is widely considered a public Ivy.
And as far as MN private schools go -- I'd rather use that money toward vacations and summer camp experiences that my kids will remember for the rest of their lives. Not worth the money.
And as far as MN private schools go -- I'd rather use that money toward vacations and summer camp experiences that my kids will remember for the rest of their lives. Not worth the money.
I looked at sending our kids to MN private high schools. I didn't see any value. If a parents goal is to get a student ready for college, how are they going to beat the UofMN (PSEO)? I do realize PESO isn't for everybody because most kids are not mature enough (or if I am being honest, not smart enough).
I do know that there are a several early development schools that focus on the gifted and talented as well as deep immersion programs. I do see the value in perusing those options.
I also see the value of private schools if a family feels the importance of a religious environment. I happen to be agnostic so needless to say that wasn't important to me. We won't get into how those private religious school kids do drugs or get into trouble as much as others. But for those who think their child has an edge in Minnetonka high school versus Champlin, I completely disagree.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 05-15-2012 at 02:28 PM..
And as far as MN private schools go -- I'd rather use that money toward vacations and summer camp experiences that my kids will remember for the rest of their lives. Not worth the money.
The public vs. private decision is a very complex one, and different families have different considerations if they seriously consider that choice. There is no doubt that most children will receive a very good education-- perhaps for them better-- in the public school system. For other families, the possibilities and opportunities afforded in an elite private school, the shared values of the school community, either religious and in the tangible expression of a financial sacrifice by not only the families but also the staff, and the continuity of education at one school make the private alternative quite valuable to them. Certainly, the best public schools compete on level ground with the average private school, but no public school can compare to the level of academic achievement possible at elite private schools, such as Breck, Blake, Minnehaha, or St. Paul Academy, any more than a public university can compete with Harvard, Yale, Stanford and schools of that caliber. Whether an individual student realizes the full potential offered by these schools is another question and many do not.
I realize that this will be a controversial post, and I will likely draw a lot of fire from it. I want to be clear that I do not in any way mean to disparage the public school system, or the choices that many of you have made for your own families. But, as a private school parent, I can tell you that we weighed these issues very carefully, and while for some, they may feel that it's not worth the money, in our view, it is a bargain.
The public vs. private decision is a very complex one, and different families have different considerations if they seriously consider that choice. There is no doubt that most children will receive a very good education-- perhaps for them better-- in the public school system. For other families, the possibilities and opportunities afforded in an elite private school, the shared values of the school community, either religious and in the tangible expression of a financial sacrifice by not only the families but also the staff, and the continuity of education at one school make the private alternative quite valuable to them. Certainly, the best public schools compete on level ground with the average private school, but no public school can compare to the level of academic achievement possible at elite private schools, such as Breck, Blake, Minnehaha, or St. Paul Academy, any more than a public university can compete with Harvard, Yale, Stanford and schools of that caliber. Whether an individual student realizes the full potential offered by these schools is another question and many do not.
I realize that this will be a controversial post, and I will likely draw a lot of fire from it. I want to be clear that I do not in any way mean to disparage the public school system, or the choices that many of you have made for your own families. But, as a private school parent, I can tell you that we weighed these issues very carefully, and while for some, they may feel that it's not worth the money, in our view, it is a bargain.
I do respect your opinion and it sounds like the right decision for your children. IMHO, Breck, Blake, and other "Elite" private schools cannot compete with the UofMN for college rigor. For instance when they offer 3 semesters of college chemistry for a high school student, then I suppose they can compare. Until then, I would be paying a lot of money for an inferior product.
I did notice that Breck had several students at the finals for National History Day. My son was also a finalist back in 10th grade with three other students from his high school. In the spirit of full disclosure, no other high school students were there from District 11 other than those three students that I mentioned. The culture of most students in District 11 is that History Day isn't important. For the three students that attended the State finals, History Day was important. It just so happens that more Breck parents think History Day is important than District 11's parents. That's the strongest correlation and it should come as no surprise. I didn't see any public school power houses at this event so I think it is fair to say most parents didn't see the value either.
So knowing that PSEO was more challenging, why should I pay for a private high school and pay money for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenfield
any more than a public university can compete with Harvard, Yale, Stanford and schools of that caliber.
Harvard, Yale, and Stanford opens doors 100 times more than Mankato. It's a blaring stamp that says "I'm very smart". The very smartest at Mankato probably could get into Harvard but the doors still won't open as easily if they graduate from Mankato. The Ivy league schools will also let students make relationships with the top performers and future leaders. Therefore people fight to get into those schools (my son included). If you own your own business, then that value diminishes dramatically. As I have said before, go knock on the doors of multi-million dollar homes. Fill in the blank: that family owns ____________ business.
The jury is out who does a better job teaching Chemistry, Physics, Business Law, or English. I think a passionate professor who doesn't want to do research in statistics will do a better job than the worlds smartest statistician at Stanford. I propose that most "elite" universities are chalk full of TERRIBLE professors. It's common to pawn off the classroom instruction to foreign TA's. In fact, I think some of the best professors are actually located at some community colleges! Their goal is to TEACH and if you get a good one, you can learn a tremendous amount. To many professors only want to do research with the burden of teaching a couple of classes. Their goal is to keep their J-1 Visas yet their brainpower raises the caliber of the school.
A big difference with some of the elite universities is the amount of research dollars. Stanford, Harvard do hold a big advantage in that department. But if you compare the quality of education , the Ivy's don't necessarily have an advantage. Now if you compare the statistics of where students end up or the number of Rhodes Scholars, there is no competition.
I guess I'm saying that the perception of the higher rated colleges attracts smarter students. Those smarter students fuel the perception and it has less to do with the true quality of education. But that's the game.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 05-15-2012 at 09:38 PM..
It just so happens that more Breck parents think History Day is important than District 11's parents. That's the strongest correlation and it should come as no surprise. I didn't see any public school power houses at this event so I think it is fair to say most parents didn't see the value either.
Yes, this is the sort of commitment to education that families at the private schools I referred to share. It's not that some families in the public schools don't have this, but at the elite private schools, it's the norm. When 90% of K-5 students participate in a no credit, extra curricular science fair where the exhibits had to be prepared over spring break, as we just saw at Minnehaha, well that demonstrates a that a certain value is being placed on learning, and that the students achieve up to those expectations.
I was a History Day judge for many years, as well as worked briefly as a History Day tutor. Not to get too far off-topic, but I don't think there's a big private/public split when it comes to the event. Some schools put in more effort for the program, that's all. In Minneapolis, I believe the "power house" element comes at the junior level (the high school students are busy with other projects, and while some classes do participate, it's not as big of a deal); it's been awhile since I've been directly involved with the MN contingent, but I believe in Minneapolis Lake Harriet School does count as a "power house," or at least they send a lot of students to the state level and last year (think it was last year) one of their students won at the national level.
As far as universities, I don't really think as far as actual education goes that there's a significant difference between Harvard and the U of MN. It's all about what you make of it. The U, as a major research institution, has some important research and top scholars (my undergraduate advisor had actually turned down a job at Harvard as he preferred the U), and undergraduates have ample opportunities to take advantage of graduate-level courses and research opportunities. The U is obviously less prestigious than an Ivy, and for people looking for big-name networking it's not going to provide that inside connection to the inner networking circles available when you attend the HYPs of the world, but from an educational viewpoint, sure, you can get as good of an education from the U as you can from Stanford. (Of course that's also going to depend on your interests and major, as ultimately for scholars, anyway, it comes down to the individual faculty members. That's more true at the graduate level, but is also relevant at the undergraduate level.)
As far as high schools, I have friends who have attended the more elite local privates (including some who started in private and then switched to public) and I didn't get the impression that their education was any better than mine. I think where the benefits of private may become more obvious is if one is looking to the school to provide the whole educational experience. I think in some cases you'd definitely have to supplement a public school education to get the same opportunities and breadth and depth of experiences. The parents who choose to send their kids to private schools are most likely the sorts of parents who would do that anyway (or for those who can pay full tuition, have the means to do that).
Yes, this is the sort of commitment to education that families at the private schools I referred to share. It's not that some families in the public schools don't have this, but at the elite private schools, it's the norm. When 90% of K-5 students participate in a no credit, extra curricular science fair where the exhibits had to be prepared over spring break, as we just saw at Minnehaha, well that demonstrates a that a certain value is being placed on learning, and that the students achieve up to those expectations.
As far as History Day, here is 2011's results. See State History Day Winners Announced - MHS Media Room
Notice the frequency of "Breck" and "DeLaSalle" (Glenfield: you better ride you Minnehaha history department to raise their visibility).
But as I said before, at the high school level, I don't see how Minnehaha is going to beat the UofMN (PSEO).
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Chemistry and biology are easily related but not biology and business. 
Did they realize who their audience was? Speaking of statistics and comparing quality, I'd be happy to compare the end results of our kids versus theirs. Whatever floats their boat. We happily chose the "lousy" Anoka District education. As I have said before, so long as the school is properly funded and you intentionally selected motivated teachers, the rest is up to the family. 
But for those who think their child has an edge in Minnetonka high school versus Champlin, I completely disagree.
Their goal is to TEACH and if you get a good one, you can learn a tremendous amount. To many professors only want to do research with the burden of teaching a couple of classes. Their goal is to keep their J-1 Visas yet their brainpower raises the caliber of the school.
