Brt (Minneapolis, Viking: groceries, versus, shopping mall)

[Beenhere4ever]

Went for my first Red Line ride. That bus moves right along. I got farther south on Cedar than I've ever been. Down that way it looks pretty nice. Pavement is new and wide. The transit stations are brand new. The recorded voice told what bus lines connected at each. Couldn't figure out where the connecting bus pickups are. Apple Valley has the biggest transit station, and it has what appears to be a sparkling new park and ride ramp connected to the station. People can drive in, park, go through the skyway, and get tickets. Then step out a sliding door into the bus and take off. I hope there is more than one ticket machine and they focus on making it up all the time. But I suppose in the worst case scenario, the passengers could just drive their cars away, but that would be stupid. Given the emphasis on having tickets for sale, the machines need to be kept up. I'm not aware that has been a problem on the Blue Line.

Here's a funny wrinkle. Where the enclosure is, there is no platform to speak of. So the bus pulls up, the driver parks it very precisely to eliminate any space, then he has a remote that opens the doors for passengers. Meaning you can't get "too close" to the edge till a driver has decided it is safe. My driver seemed to be learning how to wave his remote at the door to get the opener working.

My ride was a sort of laboratory experience. Best possible conditions. I don't believe it will go as fast when they start providing serious service. For one thing, no handicapped people got on. PLUS there are always the crazy mothers with their strollers that can't be folded up and get parked in the aisle making a hurdle for other passengers. Maybe the Apple Valley customers won't have to deal with that. I hope not. The most heavily-used bus lines in the central cities seem to be the very ones where the stroller mamas choose to ride. Won't get good speed with them along. On today's trip, the driver didn't have to anchor any scooter or wheelchair. That detracts from speed. But at 7am, I don't think very many of those chairs and scooters will be traveling. Remains to be seen.

[Beenhere4ever]

Here's an interesting article for people to read and comment on. About much more than BRT, but includes BRT. A bid for bus lanes | Twin Cities Daily Planet

[MPLS_TC]

Mpls. Group Wants Light Rail Taken Underground | KSTP TV - Minneapolis and St. Paul here we go again. Maybe in 20 years they will begin construction. There talking about the train going underground again.

[Beenhere4ever]

Yeh, for sure. Let them come up with the money WITHOUT hitting poor folks for it. Seriously, people think everything can be done for free. Must have lived on Mommy's credit card all their lives.

[ManBearPig1]

If it's going to go underground, that tunnel should be under uptown.

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by MPLS_TC

Mpls. Group Wants Light Rail Taken Underground | KSTP TV - Minneapolis and St. Paul here we go again. Maybe in 20 years they will begin construction. There talking about the train going underground again.

A sign we should end our light rail obsession and build a subway train.

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3

A sign we should end our light rail obsession and build a subway train.

Fine. You open your own pocketbook first to prove you really believe it. It is gonna SUCK money like nothing you've ever seen. And forget it if you think this is something the suburbs can expect Minneapolis to sell bonds for. Really, as a practical matter, and elevated train is WAY more practical than a buried one. I want all the trains to run elevated, above the traffice, to end all these crazy people who try to save a minute by driving across the rails when the train is near.

The most heralded subway construction project to date is New York City’s 2nd Avenue line, which began in 2011 after decades of delay. Current work covers a 2-mile stretch under the east side of Manhattan that will have 3 stations. Plans are to build an 8.5 mile line that will run two-thirds the length of the island from Harlem to the financial district at the southern tip, but no funding has been committed for the entire subway line. The short section now under construction will cost a staggering $4.5 billion.

That figure, in a nutshell, is why there’s so little subway activity in the U.S. San Francisco’s Central Subway Project will cost $1.7 billion to cover less than 2 miles. Washington’s Silver Line is expected to cost $5.6 billion, but costs would have been even higher if plans to run certain portions of the line underground had been approved.

[Beenhere4ever]

Too another ride, cleared up some more details. Cedar Grove and the Apple Valley main station have parking places. Cedar Grove has a bare minimum. The main station has lots and lots. The Southport Centre next to Apple Valley main station is not a walker's mall unless you mainly go to the mall for exercise. Actually the west side is more convenient. Batteries Plus is right out the door of the station. I looked for ticket machines, could not find any. People were getting on with money, so that part of the promise of BRT, that stations will sell tickets, is yet to be fulfilled.

I also took the opportunity to check the service of MVTA. It is pretty spotty, but I'm assuming they are running buses to the places most wanted at the times most wanted. The Red Line, on the other hand, is running them throughout the day and evening. One MVTA line had an hourly schedule. So you can easily travel that way, but heaven help you if you run a little late. The trip times some have cited assume ideal circumstances. Miss an hourly bus by a minute and suddenly the advantage of a direct line is not there anymore. I did also see that Apple Valley riders do have service direct to downtown St Paul. No need to go via the MOA.

So the sticky question is "Assuming the Red Line provides added value, does it provide enough added value to justify the expenditure beyond that for express buses. And, of course, given the whopping cost of LRT, can they ever provide enough added value to justify the cost of building them? Most Blue Line runs are not full. More that I take are half empty than jammed with passengers. Seems like it has soaked up hundreds of millions that might have provided a whole bunch of added service using lowest-cost technology.

[golfgal]

Mass transit anywhere is not funded by ridership. Even in a place like DC that has a wonderful system, ridership pays about 1/2 the cost with the federal government picking up the rest of the tab. It is what it is. People want mass transit, they are going to have to pay for it through taxes. DC metro has just under 1/2 of the core workforce riding the metro...but then again, the metro goes were people work and not just to "downtown" like we have, were only a small fraction of the metro population works.

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/docs/metrofacts.pdf

[gweilo845]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

I looked for ticket machines, could not find any. People were getting on with money, so that part of the promise of BRT, that stations will sell tickets, is yet to be fulfilled.

I also took the opportunity to check the service of MVTA. It is pretty spotty, but I'm assuming they are running buses to the places most wanted at the times most wanted. The Red Line, on the other hand, is running them throughout the day and evening. One MVTA line had an hourly schedule. So you can easily travel that way, but heaven help you if you run a little late. The trip times some have cited assume ideal circumstances. Miss an hourly bus by a minute and suddenly the advantage of a direct line is not there anymore. I did also see that Apple Valley riders do have service direct to downtown St Paul. No need to go via the MOA.

At least at the AV transit center stops, there are Go To card/ticket machines but they are covered by tarps right now, so I assume they're still being worked on, along with other stuff like the Nextrip signs and monitors.

Your point about the spotty service is something I brought up before. It's nice that they're running every 15 minutes or so but unless you live along Cedar or close to it, getting to a stop to catch the Red Line isn't easy at most times, and pretty much impossible on nights/weekends.

And I still have not seen a Red Line bus with more than a couple of people on it. Maybe the numbers were bigger at first because they were offering free rides for a week.