Twin Cities Transportation Issues (Minneapolis, Plymouth: houses, living in, cost)

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by Bslette

Plus, I84 in Portland runs directly through dense neighborhoods in a narrow and lowered viaduct, and the light rail runs alongside it, making it very accessible. The line also doesn't start on I84, it runs in the middle of the city first. I394 is surrounded by forest and a hill on one side and empty industrial space on the other side It is very wide, and once it reaches downtown it is lowered and if the line were to run in the middle, it would be inaccessible still. I394 and I84 are nothing alike.

The point is that the rail and the highways after I5 and I84 were planned together. Meaning way less of this attempt to ram rail at huge expense through upscale neighborhoods. And just because it makes great time does not make it "commuter rail". I have ridden commuter rail, and this is nothing like it. It just isn't brainless engineering. Every phase of rail planning in the Twin Cities has been mediocre. It may simply be what my brother-in-law complains about in MNDOT highway planning. Politicians tell engineers the "best way". Then decades later, politicians again get involved in "fixes" of the mistakes forced on engineers. It is all a political football. In Oregon, I think the politicians have more receptivity to what the engineers say. Nobody talks about boring tunnels underground in Oregon. The same money builds track where neighborhood impact is lower. The space where the blue, red, and green lines run was there since the Banfield Freeway went in. I used to live next to the gulch that was widened. So by route flexibility, they managed to fit THREE lines into that one space that was already in state hands.

But then, Portland does things like charge deposit on recyclable cans and bottles and soon will ban the plastic bags. Good luck getting any of the stuff here that Oregon did back decades ago. Minnesota is a "green wannabe state".

[Bslette]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

The point is that the rail and the highways after I5 and I84 were planned together. Meaning way less of this attempt to ram rail at huge expense through upscale neighborhoods. And just because it makes great time does not make it "commuter rail". I have ridden commuter rail, and this is nothing like it. It just isn't brainless engineering. Every phase of rail planning in the Twin Cities has been mediocre. It may simply be what my brother-in-law complains about in MNDOT highway planning. Politicians tell engineers the "best way". Then decades later, politicians again get involved in "fixes" of the mistakes forced on engineers. It is all a political football. In Oregon, I think the politicians have more receptivity to what the engineers say. Nobody talks about boring tunnels underground in Oregon. The same money builds track where neighborhood impact is lower. The space where the blue, red, and green lines run was there since the Banfield Freeway went in. I used to live next to the gulch that was widened. So by route flexibility, they managed to fit THREE lines into that one space that was already in state hands.

But then, Portland does things like charge deposit on recyclable cans and bottles and soon will ban the plastic bags. Good luck getting any of the stuff here that Oregon did back decades ago. Minnesota is a "green wannabe state".

That's definitely not why I called it commuter rail. I called it commuter rail because it only serves commuters from the suburbs and completely skips the dense neighborhoods of the core city where much more people live and need/use public transit. Not that many suburbanites will choose to take the light rail if it is built, at least not for a long time. If the light rail were built, say, as a subway underneath Hennepin Avenue, and surfacing to run on the Midtown Greenway, people would begin to use it immediately. It not only gives the suburbanites access to the northern part of downtown, it also gives them access to Uptown, Lyn Lake, the Chain of Lakes, all of the area along Hennepin Avenue, the southern edge of the theater district, Loring Park, The Walker Art Center, and the North Loop. It would also give the people living in the city access to all of those places in addition to their daily necessities (groceries, schools, workplaces, etc.) and also give them access to the employment centers in the suburbs, where many of them work. Also, the times would still be quick because the line would be underground.

Of course, the initial response from everyone would be that it would cost so much. Would it really? It would cost more initially, yes, but in the long run it would cost much less than both the Kenilworth and the Nicollet/Greenway routes. Why?

-It would take away the need for the entire Hennepin streetcar line, taking away the costs of:

-Building the streetcar line
-extending it
-Operating it
-Maintaining it
-Low capacity (leading to low ridership)
-Replacing it when the line needs to be upgraded to handle more people.

It would also lower the operating and maintenance costs of the light rail line because the tracks would not be exposed to weather, nor would the trains or stations. The trains could be longer, hold more people, run faster, and last longer. That would mean higher ridership on one single, efficient line rather than two inefficient lines, one that is slow and small that serves everybody, and one that is fast and large but serves nobody.

As a bonus, it could still hook up to a future Midtown Greenway streetcar or light rail line.


This is the third time that I've posted about this alignment idea, I know, but I've been ignored the first two times.

[Beenhere4ever]

Wrong. It definitely serves the inner city. Go ride it if you don't believe me. Their trains are the EXACT same trains now running on our Blue Line. The stations are equivalent. It is LRT pure and simple and has been known as such for eons. Just 20 years precocious and with much less virulent opposition as rail has ever encountered here. Both parties in Oregon are known as progressive. The fights are not over environment issues. They don't even have a sales tax. I don't know why anyone would seriously want the SWLRT running where they are trying to FORCE it to run. Pure blind stubbornnes I guess. Sort of like the stadium. "We know best so get used to it."

[iNviNciBL3]

The SW Light Rails West Lake street station is right by Lake Calhoun and pretty close to Uptown.

Remember we have legs and we have bicycles!

[Bslette]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

Wrong. It definitely serves the inner city. Go ride it if you don't believe me. Their trains are the EXACT same trains now running on our Blue Line. The stations are equivalent. It is LRT pure and simple and has been known as such for eons. Just 20 years precocious and with much less virulent opposition as rail has ever encountered here. Both parties in Oregon are known as progressive. The fights are not over environment issues. They don't even have a sales tax. I don't know why anyone would seriously want the SWLRT running where they are trying to FORCE it to run. Pure blind stubbornnes I guess. Sort of like the stadium. "We know best so get used to it."

Sorry, I originally called the SW light rail "commuter rail", not Portland's. Portland's line is good, I actually spoke positively of it. I spoke negatively about your idea to run the SW line on 394. We are sort of agreeing. I think Portland has a good system. I think our Hiawatha line could have been done better, but it isn't too bad. I think the green line is going to be a success. I think the SW and Bottineau are both terrible routes, and I think the routes that are te best were almost completely ignored.

I kind of want some input on my comments about a tunneled Hennepin Ave. alignment. Is there something I'm missing or is that route much better than both of the other alternatives?

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by Bslette

I kind of want some input on my comments about a tunneled Hennepin Ave. alignment. Is there something I'm missing or is that route much better than both of the other alternatives?

There is proposals for streetcar lines to serve that area of Minneapolis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneap...reetcar_System

This line would run mostly along Hennepin Avenue from the Uptown Transit Center through Downtown Minneapolis (connecting with the Hiawatha Line at Warehouse District / Hennepin Avenue Station) to the University of Minnesota's East Bank, at which point it would become the University/4th Street Line. The line would cross the Mississippi River on the Hennepin Avenue Bridge.
The line would be 3.9 miles long. The track would cost approximately $80,000,000. Ridership estimates for the line are approximately 9,500 to 12,000 weekday riders. (This includes the University/4th Street Line also.)
The route follows a portion of the southern leg of TCRT's Oak–Harriet line.

[Bslette]

Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3

The SW Light Rails West Lake street station is right by Lake Calhoun and pretty close to Uptown.

Remember we have legs and we have bicycles!

Yes, but that is the only station for almost the entire stretch in Minneapolis that serves anything, and yet it is still over a half mile from Uptown. Uptown is one of the major entertainment, food, nightlife, retail, and development hubs of the city. It should be directly served by a rail line, not skipped by a half mile. Not to mention the entire stretch of density along Hennepin, Franklin, and in Loring Park where a lot of people live. Those people will have no access to the line because it will be hidden away in an largely inaccessible forest. People shouldn't have to bike a mile or two through neighborhoods, underneath freeways and across empty industrial wasteland to get to a transit station. The transit station should be near the population in the first place. I know that buses will end up serving the station, but as far as visitors and newcomers go, bus routes are confusing to figure out and they're routes aren't very apparent in any way. If Minneapolis wants to help its image, it should have a rail line that serves the city and doesn't run through forest. Visitors will be completely confused when they find that the train they are taking is taking them through woodlands. "Is this even a city?"

Our transit planners' philosophy is based on the word "less".

Less length, less stations, less people, less riders, less trains, less time, less money! That means it's efficient right? If we spend less money? Right?

[Bslette]

Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3

There is proposals for streetcar lines to serve that area of Minneapolis.

Minneapolis Streetcar System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did you read my post? Read my post. I'm well aware of the streetcar line (which runs in traffic) planned for one of the busiest bottlenecks in the city. Please read my post. I talked all about it.

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by Bslette

Yes, but that is the only station for almost the entire stretch in Minneapolis that serves anything, and yet it is still over a half mile from Uptown. Uptown is one of the major entertainment, food, nightlife, retail, and development hubs of the city. It should be directly served by a rail line, not skipped by a half mile. Not to mention the entire stretch of density along Hennepin, Franklin, and in Loring Park where a lot of people live. Those people will have no access to the line because it will be hidden away in an largely inaccessible forest. People shouldn't have to bike a mile or two through neighborhoods, underneath freeways and across empty industrial wasteland to get to a transit station. The transit station should be near the population in the first place. I know that buses will end up serving the station, but as far as visitors and newcomers go, bus routes are confusing to figure out and they're routes aren't very apparent in any way. If Minneapolis wants to help its image, it should have a rail line that serves the city and doesn't run through forest. Visitors will be completely confused when they find that the train they are taking is taking them through woodlands. "Is this even a city?"

Well if you live in the most walkable area in one of the most "fittest" cities i think you can handle a little trip down the Greenway to the light rail station, or you could wait for the streetcar line which will take you right into downtown. but this W Lake Station is most likely for the people on the west side of Lake Calhoun and for the lake itself.

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by Bslette

Did you read my post? Read my post. I'm well aware of the streetcar line (which runs in traffic) planned for one of the busiest bottlenecks in the city. Please read my post. I talked all about it.

Yes i don't like an underground line in an area like that. Streetcars are very efficient, easy to get on and off and you shirnk the street allowing for more of a pedestrian friendly experience.