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I ride University via bus at least five days each week, and really, I think the ridership is going to be through the roof. For this stretch of the Twin Cities, anyway, there is the density and the ridership to justify the money. The buses are already packed, and there will be more people who don't take the bus but who will take the train. This is a line that actually makes sense. The buses get bunched up, and can themselves add to traffic; beyond that, we could just really use greater capacity for this corridor.
Most people aren't going from downtown to downtown. If that was the only need, then this line wouldn't make sense -- just like it wouldn't make sense to put this route down the freeway. But there are so many businesses, major destinations (like the U), and homes along the way that were it will really shine is the ease with which it will take people from point to point along an already existing significant commercial corridor. People do that already with the bus, but it will be even faster with the train (and appealing to more potential riders). It's also already started to spur a lot of development. I know that brings up concerns about gentrification, but I really think that despite some issues on that front this line has the potential to drastically -- for the positive -- change the Twin Cities. And the smart development along the line is significant, too.
Well, time will tell. Personally, I can think of better ways to spend a billion dollars.
My concerns about the University rail line include:
* It's a significant barrier to north/south transportation. Pedestrians, cars, and bicycles can only cross at a fraction of the places they used to. The crossing traffic is heavier and the red lights many times longer.
* There is no parking along University. I already avoid places I used to frequent because of it.
* The rail line only stops every half mile at best (there is a full mile with no stops between Raymond and Fairview) and since buses will be eliminated businesses that used to have mass transit access will no longer. I was at the Dubliner the other night and someone was talking about the wonders of light rail and how it would benefit the Dub. No way, since the closest light rail stop is ½ mile away and the corner bus stop will be removed in a few weeks.
I'm sure the light rail line will transform the area, anything this disruptive has to. Unfortunately, I think its going to be a transportation corridor that people pass through with little reason to get off other than to catch a north/south bus or walk to a luxury apartment.
I would have spent the money on more frequent bus service, upgrading the avenue, planting some trees, and property tax relief for the small businesses.
Put the trains down the center of the freeway like Chicago. That would actually help with congestion on the freeways. I don't care how much it would cost. These trains should be used to alleviate traffic not as a novelty for people attending sporting events
^^This. I thought the whole point of light rail was to provide more public transportation options and reduce motor vehicle congestion for the Twin Cities since we are so car-oriented. Given that many of the jobs along the line that these trains will run are concentrated in the downtown cores, there is little to no incentive for a person living on the opposite side of town to avoid driving since traveling by light rail will take at least 40 minutes whereas the journey by car takes about 10 minutes in non-rush hour traffic and only about 20-25 minutes during peak periods. What motivation is there for someone who lives in downtown St. Paul and works in Minneapolis to take the light rail versus driving when the latter is so much quicker? The same applies for the reverse trip or to many other destinations along the route such as the airport and MOA.
We need to build transit lines that will actually entice people not to use their cars. If this doesn't happen, there will be little to no recognizable improvement in traffic congestion levels.
since traveling by light rail will take at least 40 minutes whereas the journey by car takes about 10 minutes in non-rush hour traffic and only about 20-25 minutes during peak periods. What motivation is there for someone who lives in downtown St. Paul and works in Minneapolis to take the light rail versus driving when the latter is so much quicker?
The express bus connecting the two downtowns will still be the fastest connection.
^^This. I thought the whole point of light rail was to provide more public transportation options and reduce motor vehicle congestion for the Twin Cities since we are so car-oriented. Given that many of the jobs along the line that these trains will run are concentrated in the downtown cores, there is little to no incentive for a person living on the opposite side of town to avoid driving since traveling by light rail will take at least 40 minutes whereas the journey by car takes about 10 minutes in non-rush hour traffic and only about 20-25 minutes during peak periods. What motivation is there for someone who lives in downtown St. Paul and works in Minneapolis to take the light rail versus driving when the latter is so much quicker? The same applies for the reverse trip or to many other destinations along the route such as the airport and MOA.
We need to build transit lines that will actually entice people not to use their cars. If this doesn't happen, there will be little to no recognizable improvement in traffic congestion levels.
What's wrong with the 16? I thought that was fine. I used to ride it all the time. Why couldn't this line be a bus rapid transit line? Could have saved hundreds of millions.
What's wrong with the 16? I thought that was fine. I used to ride it all the time. Why couldn't this line be a bus rapid transit line? Could have saved hundreds of millions.
Buses are nice for some. But sadly a lot of people have a bias against taking a bus. Much more people prefer trains. There much smoother and more comfortable. There a lot easier for tourist and visitors to understand and feel comfortable using. A three car train can carry as many as 400 passengers (136 per car). Most buses can only carry between 50-100.
I think this line is going to be a huge hit. About 6 million people ride the 16 and 50 a year. The MetCouncil is projecting 11 million yearly riders by 2030. I think it's going to break that mark before the decade is out. People talk about the downtown to downtown riders. But seem to forget the huge university in the middle.
University Ave has been sorely lacking in development over the years. But we're already seeing a lot of money by developers and investors pour into the area. The line is about more than just moving people. It's for economic development too.
Put the trains down the center of the freeway like Chicago. That would actually help with congestion on the freeways. I don't care how much it would cost. These trains should be used to alleviate traffic not as a novelty for people attending sporting events
This is my only gripe. I think down Uni is just a mess.
I love the option of the train - we are looking forward to using it for Twins games and concerts in Mpls (currently we park at MOA and take the Blue Line out..). I just wish they had been smarter in the placement of it.
Buses are nice for some. But sadly a lot of people have a bias against taking a bus. Much more people prefer trains. There much smoother and more comfortable. There a lot easier for tourist and visitors to understand and feel comfortable using. A three car train can carry as many as 400 passengers (136 per car). Most buses can only carry between 50-100.
I think this line is going to be a huge hit. About 6 million people ride the 16 and 50 a year. The MetCouncil is projecting 11 million yearly riders by 2030. I think it's going to break that mark before the decade is out. People talk about the downtown to downtown riders. But seem to forget the huge university in the middle.
University Ave has been sorely lacking in development over the years. But we're already seeing a lot of money by developers and investors pour into the area. The line is about more than just moving people. It's for economic development too.
Never heard of anyone who wouldn't take the bus due to the smoothness or comfort of the ride. It's almost always about who's on the bus with them or the lack of freedom of not having their car. I also don't envision tourists or visitors riding up & down University Ave on the Green Line. From MSP to DT Mpls YES, down University, no.
Initial ridership will be huge as it's a novelty. Also people will use the Green Line from Mpls to get DT St Paul for a Saints game at first. Once a person has doen that once though, I don't envision them ever going back.
The economic development is important & undeniable. If that's the goal it may be a hit, but as mentioned with stops so far apart the majority of businesses will never benefit from it.
The University of Mn angle is a smart one. Investors swept in & bought up foreclosures & cheap rentals from 280 East to Snelling, then Snelling to Hamline, then Hamline to Lexington, now Lexington to Dale. The goal is to spruce them up a bit & rent them, hopefully to students. I know the African American community in Frogtown is very angry that rents went up 43% last year alone as the hipsters are already gentrifying them out of their neighborhoods. As a property owner in the area though, I'm thrilled! My property values have skyrocketed over the past few years.
Never heard of anyone who wouldn't take the bus due to the smoothness or comfort of the ride. It's almost always about who's on the bus with them or the lack of freedom of not having their car. I also don't envision tourists or visitors riding up & down University Ave on the Green Line. From MSP to DT Mpls YES, down University, no.
Initial ridership will be huge as it's a novelty. Also people will use the Green Line from Mpls to get DT St Paul for a Saints game at first. Once a person has doen that once though, I don't envision them ever going back.
The economic development is important & undeniable. If that's the goal it may be a hit, but as mentioned with stops so far apart the majority of businesses will never benefit from it.
You don't see visitors and tourists using it?? I see them being a big user. Lots of them will use it to go the capital area and either downtown. A train route is far more easier for visitors to understand than a bus route. Tourists don't know a 16 bus from a 63 or a 54 and so on. The Blue and Green Lines are far easier to comprehend for someone who've only been here rarely or never before.
I've also noticed how a lot of people just see this line as a way for people to go from Minneapolis to St. Paul. A lot of users will probably be going the opposite direction. St. Paul to Minneapolis or the UofM. As a resident of St. Paul I'll be happy with anyone coming over to my city to spend and visit. But let's not kid ourselves, downtown Minneapolis and the UofM are the big draws. That's where most people will be heading.
Minneapolis has the night clubs, the Twins, Vikes, Twolves, UofM, 160,000 downtown workers. St. Paul has about 60,000 downtown workers, the Wild, and the Saints. Oh and a really nice Farmers Market in Lowertown. Nice, but nowhere in Minneapolis' league.
You nailed it. The Green Line is a colossal waste of money, a billion dollar solution to a problem that never existed. Minnesota destroyed a 10-mile strip of residential neighborhoods and small businesses, and gutted one of the most vibrant and historic road corridors in the Twin Cities, for no other reason than to be able to point and say, "hey, look, we have two trains now, just like Cleveland! Woo hoo!"
What neighborhoods have been destroyed? Downtown Minneapolis isn't. The University of Minnesota isn't (unless you see Washington Avenue closed to cars speeding through campus as ruining the neighborhood). Downtown St. Paul certainly isn't (if anything, it has the most to gain of the major activity centers along the line). So you must be referring to the meaty center that runs mostly through St. Paul. But I don't see how a train line running a few blocks from a highway that, you know, destroyed a vibrant neighborhood, could possibly be accused to causing more than some slight inconveniences during construction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLS_TC
Put the trains down the center of the freeway like Chicago. That would actually help with congestion on the freeways. I don't care how much it would cost. These trains should be used to alleviate traffic not as a novelty for people attending sporting events
I really don't know why people think this is some great idea. First of all, I have never had such an unpleasant experience on a train as riding the El on the freeway. Not only was the train loud and creaky, but the roar of the highway was excruciating at times. I couldn't hear myself think, let alone relax or chat with my friends.
But even worse, what's to actually be gained? You lose most of the development benefits (apartments, condos, and businesses like to develop near rail...loud freeways? ...not so much) and gain nothing in return except that University Avenue would still be the crappy road it was before. I mean, how many people going from the east metro to downtown Minneapolis would drive into downtown St. Paul (battling all the traffic with it), park in a ramp, wait for a train, then take that train to downtown Minneapolis? Transfer penalties are real, especially when they involve the personal automobile. And it would still have to stop at all of the stations that slow it down, unless we plan on building more infrastructure through neighborhoods without it benefiting the neighborhoods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh01
My concerns about the University rail line include:
* It's a significant barrier to north/south transportation. Pedestrians, cars, and bicycles can only cross at a fraction of the places they used to. The crossing traffic is heavier and the red lights many times longer.
* There is no parking along University. I already avoid places I used to frequent because of it.
* The rail line only stops every half mile at best (there is a full mile with no stops between Raymond and Fairview) and since buses will be eliminated businesses that used to have mass transit access will no longer. I was at the Dubliner the other night and someone was talking about the wonders of light rail and how it would benefit the Dub. No way, since the closest light rail stop is ½ mile away and the corner bus stop will be removed in a few weeks.
Doesn't the highway already pose a significant barrier to north/south transportation? Most people crossing University will be on one of the major streets anyway. And during rush hour--when this "issue" will be most apparent--crossing the street or making a left turn would be near impossible with traffic anyway.
I have visited many of places along University Avenue and I can say that I have never had an issue finding parking. Ever. No, I can't park on University Avenue. But I can park just around the corner. Or in one of the many, many, many parking lots nearby.
There really won't be a reduction in stops. A reduction in bus frequency? Yes. But the 16 will remain. It will stop everywhere it stopped before. The 50 is the bus being eliminated, but that's not exactly a loss. And for what it's worth, I walked home many nights from the bar and that was well over a half mile away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhody2Mn
^^This. I thought the whole point of light rail was to provide more public transportation options and reduce motor vehicle congestion for the Twin Cities since we are so car-oriented. Given that many of the jobs along the line that these trains will run are concentrated in the downtown cores, there is little to no incentive for a person living on the opposite side of town to avoid driving since traveling by light rail will take at least 40 minutes whereas the journey by car takes about 10 minutes in non-rush hour traffic and only about 20-25 minutes during peak periods. What motivation is there for someone who lives in downtown St. Paul and works in Minneapolis to take the light rail versus driving when the latter is so much quicker? The same applies for the reverse trip or to many other destinations along the route such as the airport and MOA.
We need to build transit lines that will actually entice people not to use their cars. If this doesn't happen, there will be little to no recognizable improvement in traffic congestion levels.
If you're going between downtowns, you would take the 94. There's no disagreement that this is the faster way to get from Minneapolis to St. Paul using transit. Nobody ever said the Green Line would be a 94 replacement (it's a 50 replacement).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLS_TC
What's wrong with the 16? I thought that was fine. I used to ride it all the time. Why couldn't this line be a bus rapid transit line? Could have saved hundreds of millions.
Actual BRT requires dedicated lanes. So you'd lose about the same amount of space on University Avenue that the Green Line is taking up. The costs aren't always that much lower. Capacity on a bus is lower (and therefore requires higher long-term costs in more vehicles and paying more drivers). And you'd still have to deal with train bias playing a factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason3000
Never heard of anyone who wouldn't take the bus due to the smoothness or comfort of the ride. It's almost always about who's on the bus with them or the lack of freedom of not having their car.
People here don't have many options (either you can take the Blue Line or you can't), but I am always much more comfortable on the train than the bus (buses can rattle, they're generally tighter quarters, and I can read things--newspaper, my phone, whatever--without getting motion sickness on the train). I'd almost certainly increase my use of mass transit.
And for that matter, trains are simply more visible. A person living in a nice apartment along the line with a car would only see the bus when it's at its stop. Once it's gone, there's no other sign of its infrastructure other than the sign on the corner (generally with no information, I might add). It's pretty hard to ignore stations, rail tracks, etc. That's not to say we couldn't improve the bus experience, but there are real down sides.
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