condo fees downtown St. Paul vs. single family home costs (sales, apartment) - Minneapolis - St. Paul - Minnesota (MN) -Twin Cities - City-Data Forum

rzzz · 06-07-2014, 10:19 PM

I was looking at MLS listings of lofts in the Rossmor building downtown St. Paul. The condo fees seem pretty high. $474/m for an 1145 sq foot unit. Or $350/m for a 565 sq foot unit.

In contrast my friends live in a newish hi rise in downtown Brooklyn. They pay $450 for their fee, but the building includes a pool, doorman, multiple rooftop patios, a library, a fitness room, two lounges, a movie room, a taxi stand, not to mention the building is 5 min from Manhattan, with a view of the Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan skyline.

The Rossmor has none of these amenities. It's an old loft building. And... it's in downtown St. Paul. The Brooklyn condo I mention is a far more expensive home, $775K vs. $177K for the 1145 sq. foot unit in the Rossmor. It seems to make condo living in St. Paul a bad deal.

Are these condo fees typical for the Twin Cities? Why are they so high? Are they high? Am I missing something?

uptown_urbanist · 06-08-2014, 08:01 AM

I think condo fees are generally assessed using square footage, among other things, so when comparing the two you'd also have to compare size. Also what they cover in terms of things like utilities. Maybe the Brooklyn building has a lot more units to spread out the costs? It sounds like it's a big building. Honestly, the Brooklyn fees sound really low. I have also heard of new buildings having artificially low fees to begin with, and boosting them down the road. Also, could be the buildings have different approaches to things like reserve funds and that sort of thing. And while the location costs are going to be reflected in the sales price, I don't know if things like building maintenance are necessarily much cheaper here, and an older loft building is going to need a lot of upkeep.

In any case, I don't think the St. Paul fees are necessarily so high, but rather the NYC fees very low. In NYC they used to say $1/square foot on average -- but that's gone up quite a bit in the past decade. Not sure what the average is here.

golfgal · 06-08-2014, 08:04 AM

What is included in those fees? If it covers all of your utilities, it might be ok but I think it is high. Keep in mind that the apartment market is totally different in NYC and you really can't compare.

For that fee and what I'm guessing is at least $1000/month rent... you can buy a pretty big house just about anywhere in the metro....

StanleyVegas · 06-08-2014, 08:11 AM

I can't really speak to what typical condo fees are or should be here, but I'm assuming your point is that St. Paul fees should be less because it's St. Paul, has no amenities, old building. etc. The unit is also a LOT cheaper that the Brooklyn place (you didn't mention their sq. footage). You're talking about $474 on top of a mortgage that's probably $1000 before prop tax and ins., probably way under 2K total monthly… as opposed to 3-4 times that in Brooklyn.

I'd agree that a SFH here is probably a better deal here, but it really depends on your lifestyle.

uptown_urbanist · 06-08-2014, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfgal

...
For that fee and what I'm guessing is at least $1000/month rent... you can buy a pretty big house just about anywhere in the metro....

Not sure about the nicer neighborhoods of St. Paul, but $1500/month won't buy you a house in my neighborhood. It can buy you a condo.

I agree that condos are not necessarily the best financial deal around here, however. You buy them for other reasons, not because they are the cheapest housing choice -- although in some neighborhoods that do offer both condos and single family houses the condos can still be the cheapest way to buy into the neighborhood.

golfgal · 06-08-2014, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Not sure about the nicer neighborhoods of St. Paul, but $1500/month won't buy you a house in my neighborhood. It can buy you a condo.

I agree that condos are not necessarily the best financial deal around here, however. You buy them for other reasons, not because they are the cheapest housing choice -- although in some neighborhoods that do offer both condos and single family houses the condos can still be the cheapest way to buy into the neighborhood.

$1500/month will buy a $400,000+house depending on how much you have to put down....that's a lot of house....

rzzz · 06-08-2014, 09:00 AM

You're right that it doesn't make sense to compare to that particular NYC condo. However, it is possible to find a place a condo in Queens that is a more similar building and has a lower condo fee. A more apt comparison would be assoc fees in Tucson which come with at least one more amenity, a pool, than what the Rossmor provides, for a smaller fee and a bigger place. I guess with an older building in St. Paul there is probably more maintenance, then snow removal from the sidewalk. If it includes utilities, then maybe it's a good deal. I just assumed it did not.

I wonder, do you home owners in the TC metro pay $350-$500 a month on top of your mortgage for maintenance, lawn care, garbage service, snow removal, etc? I don't pay that much now, but I inherited all the lawn stuff. I guess if I have to replace a boiler or fix plumbing it would have a one time fee that amortized over a year could push all my upkeep costs up to $400/m.

golfgal · 06-08-2014, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzzz

You're right that it doesn't make sense to compare to that particular NYC condo. However, it is possible to find a place a condo in Queens that is a more similar building and has a lower condo fee. A more apt comparison would be assoc fees in Tucson which come with at least one more amenity, a pool, than what the Rossmor provides, for a smaller fee and a bigger place. I guess with an older building in St. Paul there is probably more maintenance, then snow removal from the sidewalk. If it includes utilities, then maybe it's a good deal. I just assumed it did not.

I wonder, do you home owners in the TC metro pay $350-$500 a month on top of your mortgage for maintenance, lawn care, garbage service, snow removal, etc? I don't pay that much now, but I inherited all the lawn stuff. I guess if I have to replace a boiler or fix plumbing it would have a one time fee that amortized over a year could push all my upkeep costs up to $400/m.

It's rare to have an association fee for a single family home in the Twin Cities. There are some areas that do but very, very few. You CAN pay those fees if you hire someone to do your lawn/snow but it's not an association fee. Townhomes by law have to have an association so you will have fees for that--but that generally includes outside maintenance, your master insurance policy (but you need one for the stuff inside your house too), usually garbage, sometimes water/sewer, plus all of your lawn/snow care.

rzzz · 06-08-2014, 09:07 AM

Oh, I didn't mean a fee, I just meant do you estimate that's what you're paying when you add up all your home maintenance costs. I guess $474/m would be about $5600 per year.

golfgal · 06-08-2014, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzzz

Oh, I didn't mean a fee, I just meant do you estimate that's what you're paying when you add up all your home maintenance costs. I guess $474/m would be about $5600 per year.

I think most people just budget whatever and put it in savings--or I assume so. We do our own lawn/snow care except for fertilizing, but that is $35 3 or 4 times/summer. Snowblower was $650 or so and will be used for many winters so no, we didn't budget for that--just bought it. Garbage is just a bill, runs $20/month give or take. So no, we don't spend anywhere near $475/month on those things and if we did , it's probably $20-50/week to get your grass cut, probably about the same to get your driveway plowed =all depending on how big they are. Most snow removal companies have some kind of set pricing--plow all snow in a month for $250 or whatever.