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Well how you feel is different than the statistics. Statistically, Minnesota ranks 2nd worst for economic outcomes for African Americans. The worst is Wisconsin. Minnesota is actually the worst for economic outcome of Hispanics. Both states also rank the worst and 2nd worst in educational outcomes for hispanic and black youth.
Even with the racial history of the south, most southern cities have a black middle class. Minnesota does not. Even in Westchester, there are significant black middle class neighborhoods in Fleetwood, New Rochelle and White Plains. There is nothing like that in the Twin Cities.
- This is true, but it's the result of having a very highly educated, very high performing population base to compete against.
- Again your point is correct and again I stress that this isn't something to feel ashamed of, it's simply geography and demographics.
Due to our mostly homogenous culture we have little racial diversity. That's not neccesarily a good or bad thing, it's just that it is a thing. It's part of why we're so successful actually. I don't want to turn this into a left vs right flame war, but the most Liberal states tend to have the most segregation, worst education and job opportunities for poor Blacks, etc. Vermont, Minnesota, New Hampshire, etc. We like to think we're more enlightened than the South and congratulate ourselves on our magic DFL formula, but governing Minnesota is like teaching High School at Edina or Minnetonka. It's easy. The people are high performing, employed, highly educated, healthy, law abiding, etc. That doesn't mean we're all mean racists because we're mostly White and successful, it's just a flawed metric to use when comparing ourselves to other more diverse states.
Because of the success of our homogenous culture, we have set the bar very high for education. A High School diploma from Mounds View or Lakeville is worth something still. They don't just give them away. Those people are likely to be articulate, fully literate and have a moderate work ethic. A poor Black person moving here from Chicago, Gary, Indiana or East St. Louis, Mo. who HAS a High School diploma isn't likely to be able to beat the guy from Apple Valley or Mounds View for an entry level job, as many of the poor inner city schools are practically giving High School diplomas away to kids, some of whom are barely literate, many who have issues with speaking mainstream English and have no work history. So what's left in terms of jobs? Taxi driving, working in the laundry at a hotel, janitor, etc. Well we have opened the flood gates to new immigrant populations (not judging, just pointing out the facts) from SE Asia, Latin America and East Africa who come here with different expectations from a job and different work ethics. Bottom line is it's damn near impossible for poor Blacks to get a job here.
We also have a very small Black Middle Class due to the demographics. We have well-to-do Blacks who live in the suburbs and hold advanced degrees working as VP of finance for this or that bank. Those Black people do very well here as every company is on the lookout for talented Black employees and they can often times find themselves in bidding wars for their services. The problem for companies hiring is, unless you were born here, it's not an appealing place to move to for work, especially if you're Black since there's no real Black community (other than the poor Black community). So we have a very small group of Blacks who do very well here, we have virtually no Black Middle Class and and then we have the permanent underclass of poor, segregated Blacks. I wouldn't live here if I was poor and Black.
This is just one of several very thoughtful posts. Thank you.
Here's some tips for keywords though: "Minnesota, second, worst, economic outcomes, African Americans"
I've already done such searches and have found so far nothing that supports those assertions.
Yes, there are articles that present those conclusions in their headlines, but they all reference a study by 24/7 Wall Street. The problem is that the study does not support the conclusion. What the study actually measures is the gap between white and African-American populations, as 24/7 explicitly acknowledges:
"In publishing its methodology, the website said it focused on divergences in the socioeconomic data and not whether the individual metrics themselves were among the best or worst in the 50 states."
Despite how lazy and unmotivated we Minnesotans are, a true sign of vigor and motivation is to question articles you read and ask yourself "does the evidence really support the conclusion?". Racial disparities are in an of themselves significant problems/injustices that need to be addressed, but they are not the same thing as outcomes relative to other states. Unfortunately a search under the terms "Minnesota, second, worst, economic outcomes, African Americans" in Google reveals a kaleidoscopic array of websites referencing the same Wall Street 24/7 study and making the same lazy false inference that equates outcomes with disparities. I suppose one could look at this as emblematic of the flaws of the internet: there really is no quality control, and poor reasoning is more often echoed than caught. The only quality control that takes place is in our heads and the quality of education in logic/reasoning is tragic.
So let's try a different search (unless one can cite a link that actually proves 'outcomes' rather than 'disparities' by state using the search above). One search I would propose is 'african american median income by state'. One result of this search is http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/com...inalReport.pdf
on page 23 there is a line that states:
African American and Hispanic 2012 median household incomes were $39,400 and $44,000, respectively, significantly below those of white ($67,700) and Asian ($75,000) households.
For the same time period (2012 3rd Quarter, per the Bureau of Labor Statistics), nationally:
Black Median Household income: $33,460
(from the site BlackDemographics.com | INCOME, whose source is the BLS).
Therefore by this key indicator of economic outcomes, African American families do better in Minnesota than the rest of the country by a significant margin. I have yet to find a source that says economic outcomes for African Americans in Minnesota are anywhere near second worst which do not suffer from the logical fallacy I described above. Perhaps if you have better luck finding such a citation you can actually share it with us rather than cast aspersions on all Minnesotans.
Last edited by Thedosius; 03-19-2015 at 09:35 AM..
Why can't the police talk about this frankly and acknowledge that the youths involved were African American? (Watch the video and you will see that indeed this was a crowd of Black youth.)
WHY, WHY, WHY.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenfield
These are questions best posed to your local Starbucks barista.
Due to our mostly homogenous culture we have little racial diversity. That's not neccesarily a good or bad thing, it's just that it is a thing. It's part of why we're so successful actually. I don't want to turn this into a left vs right flame war, but the most Liberal states tend to have the most segregation, worst education and job opportunities for poor Blacks, etc. Vermont, Minnesota, New Hampshire, etc. We like to think we're more enlightened than the South and congratulate ourselves on our magic DFL formula, but governing Minnesota is like teaching High School at Edina or Minnetonka. It's easy. The people are high performing, employed, highly educated, healthy, law abiding, etc. That doesn't mean we're all mean racists because we're mostly White and successful, it's just a flawed metric to use when comparing ourselves to other more diverse states.
Because of the success of our homogenous culture, we have set the bar very high for education. A High School diploma from Mounds View or Lakeville is worth something still. They don't just give them away. Those people are likely to be articulate, fully literate and have a moderate work ethic. A poor Black person moving here from Chicago, Gary, Indiana or East St. Louis, Mo. who HAS a High School diploma isn't likely to be able to beat the guy from Apple Valley or Mounds View for an entry level job, as many of the poor inner city schools are practically giving High School diplomas away to kids, some of whom are barely literate, many who have issues with speaking mainstream English and have no work history. So what's left in terms of jobs? Taxi driving, working in the laundry at a hotel, janitor, etc. Well we have opened the flood gates to new immigrant populations (not judging, just pointing out the facts) from SE Asia, Latin America and East Africa who come here with different expectations from a job and different work ethics. Bottom line is it's damn near impossible for poor Blacks to get a job here.
We also have a very small Black Middle Class due to the demographics. We have well-to-do Blacks who live in the suburbs and hold advanced degrees working as VP of finance for this or that bank. Those Black people do very well here as every company is on the lookout for talented Black employees and they can often times find themselves in bidding wars for their services. The problem for companies hiring is, unless you were born here, it's not an appealing place to move to for work, especially if you're Black since there's no real Black community (other than the poor Black community). So we have a very small group of Blacks who do very well here, we have virtually no Black Middle Class and and then we have the permanent underclass of poor, segregated Blacks. I wouldn't live here if I was poor and Black.
I've already done such searches and have found so far nothing that supports those assertions.
Yes, there are articles that present those conclusions in their headlines, but they all reference a study by 24/7 Wall Street. The problem is that the study does not support the conclusion. What the study actually measures is the gap between white and African-American populations, as 24/7 explicitly acknowledges:
"In publishing its methodology, the website said it focused on divergences in the socioeconomic data and not whether the individual metrics themselves were among the best or worst in the 50 states."
Despite how lazy and unmotivated we Minnesotans are, a true sign of vigor and motivation is to question articles you read and ask yourself "does the evidence really support the conclusion?". Racial disparities are in an of themselves significant problems/injustices that need to be addressed, but they are not the same thing as outcomes relative to other states. Unfortunately a search under the terms "Minnesota, second, worst, economic outcomes, African Americans" in Google reveals a kaleidoscopic array of websites referencing the same Wall Street 24/7 study and making the same lazy false inference that equates outcomes with disparities. I suppose one could look at this as emblematic of the flaws of the internet: there really is no quality control, and poor reasoning is more often echoed than caught. The only quality control that takes place is in our heads and the quality of education in logic/reasoning is tragic.
So let's try a different search (unless one can cite a link that actually proves 'outcomes' rather than 'disparities' by state using the search above). One search I would propose is 'african american median income by state'. One result of this search is http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/com...inalReport.pdf
on page 23 there is a line that states:
African American and Hispanic 2012 median household incomes were $39,400 and $44,000, respectively, significantly below those of white ($67,700) and Asian ($75,000) households.
For the same time period (2012 3rd Quarter, per the Bureau of Labor Statistics), nationally:
Black Median Household income: $33,460
(from the site BlackDemographics.com | INCOME, whose source is the BLS).
Therefore by this key indicator of economic outcomes, African American families do better in Minnesota than the rest of the country by a significant margin. I have yet to find a source that says economic outcomes for African Americans in Minnesota are anywhere near second worst which do not suffer from the logical fallacy I described above. Perhaps if you have better luck finding such a citation you can actually share it with us rather than cast aspersions on all Minnesotans.
You are comparing median household income statistics from 2 different sources that likely use different methodologies. It would be better to find one source that used the same methodology for both Minnesota and the United States as a whole.
Census data can do that:
5-year estimate for black or african american alone householder median household income in 2013 is:
Minnesota: $29,896; U.S.: $35,415
3-year estimate:
Minnesota: $30,267; U.S.: $34,560
1-year estimate:
Minnesota: $31,021; U.S.: $34,815
(more years in estimate gives a more accurate estimate, but less recent)
I would also argue that disparities do matter in terms of outcomes. Higher incomes of others will result in a higher cost of living. $30,000 in Minnesota doesn't go as far as $30,000 in Mississippi.
Due to our mostly homogenous culture we have little racial diversity. That's not neccesarily a good or bad thing, it's just that it is a thing. It's part of why we're so successful actually. I don't want to turn this into a left vs right flame war, but the most Liberal states tend to have the most segregation, worst education and job opportunities for poor Blacks, etc. Vermont, Minnesota, New Hampshire, etc. We like to think we're more enlightened than the South and congratulate ourselves on our magic DFL formula, but governing Minnesota is like teaching High School at Edina or Minnetonka. It's easy. The people are high performing, employed, highly educated, healthy, law abiding, etc. That doesn't mean we're all mean racists because we're mostly White and successful, it's just a flawed metric to use when comparing ourselves to other more diverse states.
I think a lot of what you've written is great, but I do question some of the more important facts you've cited. I believe a false impression has been spread as I explained in my other lengthy post in this thread just a couple hours ago. Too many people are spreading unmerited conclusions based on the income gap which does indeed tend to be worse in 'liberal' states. Again, disparities do not equal relative outcomes.
Education -
I can't find statistics that would support that education for African-Americans is poor in Minnesota relative to the national average. Of course, every source deserves examination and questioning, but I can't find a reason to disqualify this source which shows Minnesota to have graduation, grade 8 ready, and grade 8 math scores among black males in Minnesota that are above the national average for black males:
If you do find a flaw in their methodology, please let me know: I'm genuinely interested in our facts being facts since even with the same facts opinions can diverge pretty sharply and this topic is of genuine interest to me (otherwise why would I be so wonky?).
It is questionable that liberal states have the worst job/employment situations for African Americans. Per this link, using data from the U.S. Census Bureau, the states with the highest median net household worth are (in order)
10. Colorado
9. New Jersey
8. Massachusetts
7. New Mexico
6. New Hampshire
5. Alaska
4. Delaware
3. Vermont
2. Maryland
1. Hawaii
I'm not sure how employment and career prospects are worse in states where median household incomes are the highest.
Segregation
Again, I'm not finding clear statistics supporting the notion that 'Liberal states tend to have the most segregation'. Granted I would like to believe that liberal states would have LESS segregation, but the data don't seem to support that notion either.
You are comparing median household income statistics from 2 different sources that likely use different methodologies. It would be better to find one source that used the same methodology for both Minnesota and the United States as a whole.
Census data can do that:
5-year estimate for black or african american alone householder median household income in 2013 is:
Minnesota: $29,896; U.S.: $35,415
3-year estimate:
Minnesota: $30,267; U.S.: $34,560
1-year estimate:
Minnesota: $31,021; U.S.: $34,815
(more years in estimate gives a more accurate estimate, but less recent)
I would also argue that disparities do matter in terms of outcomes. Higher incomes of others will result in a higher cost of living. $30,000 in Minnesota doesn't go as far as $30,000 in Mississippi.
Thanks, northsub, I do want my information to be accurate. Can you link the source? I did try to find this info on both the census and BLS sites but could not (I found nationwide statistics for black unemployment but couldn't find the state-by-state breakdown). I fully understand the flaws in relying on two different sources and I think your point is correct...it's just all I could find at that time.
*Alas, I can no longer edit my previous post. I'd like to put in a disclaimer pointing out the flaws you uncovered.
I would also argue that disparities do matter in terms of outcomes. Higher incomes of others will result in a higher cost of living. $30,000 in Minnesota doesn't go as far as $30,000 in Mississippi.
There is a loose correlation, yes, but I don't think the correlation is strong enough to justify using disparities as a proxy for outcomes which the Wall Street 24/7 article does. For example, QoL in Minnesota is near the national average, yet the median household income hovers around 9th highest in the country. So while I agree that disparities do matter in terms of outcomes, I never said they didn't. I said that you can't use one in the place of the other, and that's true.
Thanks, northsub, I do want my information to be accurate. Can you link the source? I did try to find this info on both the census and BLS sites but could not (I found nationwide statistics for black unemployment but couldn't find the state-by-state breakdown). I fully understand the flaws in relying on two different sources and I think your point is correct...it's just all I could find at that time.
*Alas, I can no longer edit my previous post. I'd like to put in a disclaimer pointing out the flaws you uncovered.
This is one of the tables I was looking at (hope the url works and isn't dependent on a cookie or something): American FactFinder - Results
Mostly, I'm using the census data to create tables that I want. You can hit the "back to advanced search" button and search for all kinds of things. There's also tables on there that break down income by income ranges which gives you a lot finer level of detail than just the median. The data there suggest that Minnesota's black population is amongst the states with the highest percentages of black families at lower income levels. One complication for that is the significant number of east African immigrants in Minnesota. I would suspect that immigrants generally have lower incomes for a generation or two. However, I don't know how you would get data that separated out recent immigrants.
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