"Youth" riot in MPLS dt last night (Minneapolis: unemployment rate, to buy)

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

I think a lot of what you've written is great, but I do question some of the more important facts you've cited. I believe a false impression has been spread as I explained in my other lengthy post in this thread just a couple hours ago. Too many people are spreading unmerited conclusions based on the income gap which does indeed tend to be worse in 'liberal' states. Again, disparities do not equal relative outcomes.


Education -
I can't find statistics that would support that education for African-Americans is poor in Minnesota relative to the national average. Of course, every source deserves examination and questioning, but I can't find a reason to disqualify this source which shows Minnesota to have graduation, grade 8 ready, and grade 8 math scores among black males in Minnesota that are above the national average for black males:

States - BLACK LIVES MATTER

If you do find a flaw in their methodology, please let me know: I'm genuinely interested in our facts being facts since even with the same facts opinions can diverge pretty sharply and this topic is of genuine interest to me (otherwise why would I be so wonky?).

Methodology - BLACK LIVES MATTER

Employment/job opportunities/income -

It is questionable that liberal states have the worst job/employment situations for African Americans. Per this link, using data from the U.S. Census Bureau, the states with the highest median net household worth are (in order)
10. Colorado
9. New Jersey
8. Massachusetts
7. New Mexico
6. New Hampshire
5. Alaska
4. Delaware
3. Vermont
2. Maryland
1. Hawaii

The 10 Best States With Top Black Household Incomes

I'm not sure how employment and career prospects are worse in states where median household incomes are the highest.

Segregation
Again, I'm not finding clear statistics supporting the notion that 'Liberal states tend to have the most segregation'. Granted I would like to believe that liberal states would have LESS segregation, but the data don't seem to support that notion either.

Still apart: Map shows states with most-segregated schools

A new study shows Minneapolis-St. Paul leading the nation in a category no one is celebrating: of 19 major metropolitan areas, the Twin Cities metro area has the widest gap in unemployment rate between blacks and whites.

During 2011, the jobless rate for African Americans in the Twin Cities averaged nearly 18 percent, more than three-times that of white residents. That's by far the biggest disparity of all the metropolitan areas covered in a study from the Economic Policy Institute.

It's not the first time the Twin Cities have received this dubious distinction. The region topped this list two years ago, as well. Last year, Minneapolis-St. Paul came in second — because the report accidentally included Milwaukee, which isn't big enough to provide reliable data.


Statistical flukes aside, researcher Algernon Austin said Minneapolis-St. Paul are not just leaders when it comes to the employment gap. They're an outlier.

"When you just look at the national data for blacks and whites, the black unemployment rate tends to be between two and two-and-a-half times the white rate," Austin said. "In the Minneapolis area, it's typically over three-times the white rate."

Austin said one reason the employment gap is so wide here, is the Twin Cities also have a larger than normal gap when it comes to education.

"The whites are sort of above average for whites. The blacks are doing somewhat below average for blacks," Austin said. "And lower education attainment, higher unemployment rate. So you see this huge disparity."

"We're on top in a number of disparities categories: health statistics, income disparities, poverty."

Twin cities again lead nation in black, white unemployment gap:
Twin Cities again lead nation in black, white unemployment gap | Minnesota Public Radio News

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by northsub

This is one of the tables I was looking at (hope the url works and isn't dependent on a cookie or something):
American FactFinder - Results

Mostly, I'm using the census data to create tables that I want. You can hit the "back to advanced search" button and search for all kinds of things. There's also tables on there that break down income by income ranges which gives you a lot finer level of detail than just the median. The data there suggest that Minnesota's black population is amongst the states with the highest percentages of black families at lower income levels. One complication for that is the significant number of east African immigrants in Minnesota. I would suspect that immigrants generally have lower incomes for a generation or two. However, I don't know how you would get data that separated out recent immigrants.

Thanks, I did find this as well after your post prompted me to search again. I still can't quite get it to work which is a little embarrassing since I'm a System/Database Admin (let's just say I'll get it eventually...).

Should you continue to search on your own, I would suggest another thing to consider in addition to your point about separating American-born African-Americans from recent immigrants: I believe the median age of African-Americans in Minnesota is lower than the national average. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that or not- I've read it somewhere but...foggy memory. Obviously, age has a significant impact on income ('prime earning years') and a younger population would earn less so we need to take that into consideration.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

A new study shows Minneapolis-St. Paul leading the nation in a category no one is celebrating: of 19 major metropolitan areas, the Twin Cities metro area has the widest gap in unemployment rate between blacks and whites....
"We're on top in a number of disparities categories: health statistics, income disparities, poverty."

Twin cities again lead nation in black, white unemployment gap:
Twin Cities again lead nation in black, white unemployment gap | Minnesota Public Radio News

None of this is in contention.

I'm aware that the disparities are among the highest in the country and indeed we've been discussing that at length over the last 20 or so posts. What is in contention is whether we can equate disparities with outcomes. My point all along is that the disparities are very high in Minnesota (which your links above say as well), but that in general when you compare outcomes for African-Americans between the various states, those in Minnesota either do well or at least not especially poorly, depending on the measure.

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

None of this is in contention.

I'm aware that the disparities are among the highest in the country and indeed we've been discussing that at length over the last 20 or so posts. What is in contention is whether we can equate disparities with outcomes. My point all along is that the disparities are very high in Minnesota (which your links above say as well), but that in general when you compare outcomes for African-Americans between the various states, those in Minnesota either do well or at least not especially poorly, depending on the measure.

So if every White person in Minnesota earns $100k a year and Blacks earn $31k, your contention is that they're better off than in a state where where Whites average $45k and Blacks average $30k? $31k is more than $30k? That's certainly one way to measure success.

I'd love to see the breakdown on Black earners because I suspect you'd see a handful of very high earners and a lot of very low earners to create the false impression of a happy medium in Minnesota? i.e. If a Wall St Exec earns $10 million a year and nine others are unemployed, it averages out to $1 million a year each. Does that prove life is good for the nine who're unemployed?

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

None of this is in contention.

I'm aware that the disparities are among the highest in the country and indeed we've been discussing that at length over the last 20 or so posts. What is in contention is whether we can equate disparities with outcomes. My point all along is that the disparities are very high in Minnesota (which your links above say as well), but that in general when you compare outcomes for African-Americans between the various states, those in Minnesota either do well or at least not especially poorly, depending on the measure.

Maybe I missed something, but have any outcomes been presented where African-Americans in Minnesota don't do worse than national average? I think the only outcome that's been presented is median income, and Minnesota is 37th in the nation in black household median income.

Here's a chart (at the bottom) with black unemployment rate by state that has Minnesota's rate as the 6th highest:
http://www.dol.gov/_Sec/media/report...e/tables.htm#5

I'm not familiar enough with BLS data to get anything useful off of them.

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

So if every White person in Minnesota earns $100k a year and Blacks earn $31k, your contention is that they're better off than in a state where where Whites average $45k and Blacks average $30k? $31k is more than $30k? That's certainly one way to measure success.

I'd love to see the breakdown on Black earners because I suspect you'd see a handful of very high earners and a lot of very low earners to create the false impression of a happy medium in Minnesota? i.e. If a Wall St Exec earns $10 million a year and nine others are unemployed, it averages out to $1 million a year each. Does that prove life is good for the nine who're unemployed?

We are talking about medians. Your example won't affect the median.

Dig through the census tables and you can find breakdowns by income range.

[MidwestRedux]

Originally Posted by northsub

We are talking about medians. Your example won't affect the median.

Dig through the census tables and you can find breakdowns by income range.

Yes, this. Median means that half earn more and half earn less. That is why median income statistics are used instead of mean income. By definition the median cannot be distorted by statistical outliers.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think too much emphasis is put on outcomes without regard to the context of input. Looking at the circumstances in which people arrive in the area, where and how they live, their income and educational attainment is going to be a much better predictor of their future success than skin color. It is an unfortunate reality that a large percentage of the African-American population in Minnesota comes from an environment that provides obstacles to success. Because a large percentage of whites in the state come from an environment that is conducive to success, there is a pronounced disparity.

This really has been a great discussion with lots of great posts, especially for such a contentious issue. Maybe we really are the most civilized large metro area after all.

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by northsub

We are talking about medians. Your example won't affect the median.

Dig through the census tables and you can find breakdowns by income range.

Touche. So much for the value of my Mpls SW diploma.

[wushuliu]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

That was probably sarcasm.
My only point is Minneapolis just doesn't have that many black people relative to the total population. And that doesn't include the burbs, which I understand are lily white. It might be hard to make definitive statements about race relations with such relatively small black populations relative to white populations.

Bingo. Yes Minneapolis has serious issues of disparity between ethnicities (I'm getting tired of using the word 'race' because 1) there's no real scientific basis for it and 2) it just reinforces the binary white/black obsession in this country) - but the context is VERY different from other parts of the country where there are both larger numbers and a stronger historical 'black' presence.

[wushuliu]

Originally Posted by MidwestRedux

This really has been a great discussion with lots of great posts, especially for such a contentious issue. Maybe we really are the most civilized large metro area after all.

Certainly on City-Data. I've explored other state forums as well as the generals. When it comes to 'race' threads it gets ugly REAL fast.