Activists want a new name for Lake Calhoun claim racism (paid)

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by northsub

Why keep refusing to even acknowledge the primary arguments against a name change?

Judging people from 150 years ago by current standards is ridiculous. You'll end up getting rid of basically every name from that long ago. Maybe that's the actual goal.

Really? I don't agree that is even vaguely sensible. Everything about our culture is derived from a continual evaluation and judgement process of all history, including the individuals who paved the way. Are Nero and Caligula far enough back as examples of history's most reviled characters? Ivan the Terrible? Atilla the Hun? Just quick names off the top of my head. We could go on naming history's infamous all night.

Originally Posted by Mason3000

It's a Pandora's box. Lindbergh, Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S Grant, Aldrich, Dupont, Fremont, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, anything with the word Progressive in it, the name Minneapolis ('Polis' from the Greeks, a slave state). Those are off the top of my head & without really researching much. Every school, street, lake, river, park, rec center, town, etc. Will all have to change if we start down this path. We'll have to start sandblasting Lincoln, Washington & Jefferson's faces off Mt Rushmore (probably Teddy Roosevelt's too). Tearing down their statues. (Isn't this exactly what ISIL's doing?) etc etc. If we're going to do all of that, then the logical progression is to change the way history is taught in public schools even more than we already have. Egypt, Rome, Greece, all slave states. Founding fathers, slave owners. Basically everyone up until about 1965 will have to be edited out.

imo, the best solution outside of leaving it alone, is to change the name from John C Calhoun, to John B Calhoun after the famous poet. No one has to spend a penny on renaming things & Calhoun loses his lake. Everyone wins.

Your suggestion at the end is reasonable enough. But your projection of Pandor's Box previous is just typical absolutist capitulation. Lindbergh does stand out as a sorry hero to support. But who among the others have any broad based social opposition? Jefferson and Washington owned slaves yet are not considered proponents of slavery. You can find small speciously ideological groups with negative agendas against almost anyone. That doesnt rise to any strong majority acknowledgment that these individuals lived life long active campaigns promoting values contradictory to our culture's ideals. Hyperbolic nonsense.

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by AmorphicDN

Really? I don't agree that is even vaguely sensible. Everything about our culture is derived from a continual evaluation and judgement process of all history, including the individuals who paved the way. Are Nero and Caligula far enough back as examples of history's most reviled characters? Ivan the Terrible? Atilla the Hun? Just quick names off the top of my head. We could go on naming history's infamous all night.
Your suggestion at the end is reasonable enough. But your projection of Pandor's Box previous is just typical absolutist capitulation. Lindbergh does stand out as a sorry hero to support. But who among the others have any broad based social opposition? Jefferson and Washington owned slaves yet are not considered proponents of slavery. You can find small speciously ideological groups with negative agendas against almost anyone. That doesnt rise to any strong majority acknowledgment that these individuals lived life long active campaigns promoting values contradictory to our culture's ideals. Hyperbolic nonsense.

Nope. The slippery slope isn't a big cliff where all things fall off it simultaneously my friend. It's about setting precedent to move towards the next step in the progression. There's already a movement to change the Minnesota state flag because it allegedly portrays American Indians in a subservient light. The Confederate flag came down from Government buildings (as it should have), but now Confederate graves are being exhumed from public spaces & TV shows like Dukes of Hazzard are being removed from the air waves. There's now a movement to tear down the statues of Confederate heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E Lee, et al in various cities across the South such as Knoxville, Memphis, Dallas & New Orleans. There's a movement now to sand blast the faces of those same Confederates from Stone Mountain, Ga. There's considerable talk about removing the Jefferson memorial in DC, with CNN's Ashley Banfeld & Don Lemon floating that idea round on-air. At UT in Austin, students have started a petition to remove George Washington due to his slave ownership. Just because those ideas don't have strong majority acknowledgement at this moment (neither does renaming Calhoun btw), doesn't mean they won't be next. If you think this is just about Calhoun or the Confederate flag & then this will be put to rest, you're either very naive or not being intellectually honest.

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

Nope. The slippery slope isn't a big cliff where all things fall off it simultaneously my friend. It's about setting precedent to move towards the next step in the progression. There's already a movement to change the Minnesota state flag because it allegedly portrays American Indians in a subservient light. The Confederate flag came down from Government buildings (as it should have), but now Confederate graves are being exhumed from public spaces & TV shows like Dukes of Hazzard are being removed from the air waves. There's now a movement to tear down the statues of Confederate heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E Lee, et al in various cities across the South such as Knoxville, Memphis, Dallas & New Orleans. There's a movement now to sand blast the faces of those same Confederates from Stone Mountain, Ga. There's considerable talk about removing the Jefferson memorial in DC, with CNN's Ashley Banfeld & Don Lemon floating that idea round on-air. At UT in Austin, students have started a petition to remove George Washington due to his slave ownership. Just because those ideas don't have strong majority acknowledgement at this moment (neither does renaming Calhoun btw), doesn't mean they won't be next. If you think this is just about Calhoun or the Confederate flag & then this will be put to rest, you're either very naive or not being intellectually honest.

Do I detect a fear of conspiracy here? What kind of conspirators would be behind this "progression?"

Seriously, why shouldn't all those things you list above be subject to dialogue? Out of the dialogue will come popular consensus. That which is deemed frivolous by the majority will be set aside. What achieves strong popular support will be subject to change. That's kind of how civilization has always progressed you know.

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by AmorphicDN

Do I detect a fear of conspiracy here? What kind of conspirators would be behind this "progression?"

Seriously, why shouldn't all those things you list above be subject to dialogue? Out of the dialogue will come popular consensus. That which is deemed frivolous by the majority will be set aside. What achieves strong popular support will be subject to change. That's kind of how civilization has always progressed you know.

Wiping away history doesn't help anyone & it smacks of fascism. At their most benign, these re-namings are distractions or vanity projects. I'm a pragmatist, I prefer to focus on issues that actually matter. I'd much rather see this type of activism & enthusiasm aimed at stopping the TPP fast track deal, at curbing the out-of-control fracking, the massive expansion of off shore drilling, the loading of the White House cabinet with Wall St execs, the extension of the Patriot Act, NSA domestic spying, domestic surveillance drones, the war on drugs, our amplified military presence overseas, etc. Instead people latch onto trinkets like renaming Lake Calhoun, Gay Marriage or Cecil the Lion.

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

Wiping away history doesn't help anyone & it smacks of fascism. At their most benign, these re-namings are distractions or vanity projects. I'm a pragmatist, I prefer to focus on issues that actually matter. I'd much rather see this type of activism & enthusiasm aimed at stopping the TPP fast track deal, at curbing the out-of-control fracking, the massive expansion of off shore drilling, the loading of the White House cabinet with Wall St execs, the extension of the Patriot Act, NSA domestic spying, domestic surveillance drones, the war on drugs, our amplified military presence overseas, etc. Instead people latch onto trinkets like renaming Lake Calhoun, Gay Marriage or Cecil the Lion.

You have an odd sense of absolutism to my observation. I don't agree that renaming places equates to wiping away history in the slightest. The history of Calhoun or any other person doesn't rest in a lake named to their honor. It rests in the legacy that followed their actions. Calhoun's legacy is best left to history books and museums, not honored in civic facilities.

I agree wholeheartedly with much of what you list as deserving attention. I don't see issues like Calhoun or Cecil or Gay Marriage in any way threatening dialogue or action on other affairs. This isn't a question of society only being allowed a certain number of topics to consider. And there's certainly nothing very time or resource consuming about conferring or correcting public honors and dishonors. It's done all the time. It has always been done. Right along with a constant dynamic of other issues both larger and smaller.

I'd say the resistance to correcting this falsely conferred honor is more disturbing and consuming than acting on it.

[FIREin2016]

It seems to me that it wasn't that long ago we were attempting to ban books due to objectionable material. I bet there are a bunch more books that should be banned now.

With this new effort to ban all items that have some sort of objectionable background, we are headed down a very slippery slope.

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by FIREin2016

It seems to me that it wasn't that long ago we were attempting to ban books due to objectionable material. I bet there are a bunch more books that should be banned now.

With this new effort to ban all items that have some sort of objectionable background, we are headed down a very slippery slope.

What "items" are you referring to that are in danger of being "banned?"

The references to "slippery slopes" in this thread are becoming hilarious. Changing the name of a lake to correct a misplaced confirmation of honor does not translate to a universal, heaven-sent mandate to change all conceivable honorariums on the planet. Issues of respect are dealt with individually as they arise all the time throughout history. Apparently a number of people are of the impression that this is akin to the physics of dominoes. All places named after historical figures are somehow set up to fall if one is tipped? Good grief!

[Ghengis]

Geraldo doesn't like the name Calhoun either...


Geraldo Rivera quits Yale position over college name change


Great, now some idiot will probably revive this thread again


oh wait, that's me

[Unsettomati]

It's wrong to change names!

The Russians never should have changed the name of Leningrad back to St. Petersburg in 1991! (because it's just not right to judge the architect of the Red Terror by late 20th standards... right?)

Not to mention removing Bill Cosby's name from a building. I mean, seriously... serial rape... so what, right?

Bill Cosby's Name Removed From University Building

Name-changes should only occur when it's really important. You know, like with Freedom Fries, that sorta thing...

[Ghengis]

Lake Freedom!