Is minneapolis sprawled? (St. Paul, Eden Prairie, Edina: earthquakes, pros and cons, wage)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Slig

BIG BOX STORES AND CHAIN RESTAURANTS FOR ALL!!!! {thundering applause}

How is that ANY different then what you see in the cities--looks to me like there are Target's, Barnes and Nobel and all kinds of chain places all over Minneapolis and St. Paul too. Get a clue.

[Slig]

Originally Posted by golfgal

How is that ANY different then what you see in the cities--looks to me like there are Target's, Barnes and Nobel and all kinds of chain places all over Minneapolis and St. Paul too. Get a clue.

Yeah, it's a huge difference. In the city you have a choice between chains and small independantly owned businesses.

[Camden Northsider]

I think there is a lot of sprawl in MSP - like others have mentioned, the cities themselves have relatively small populations in comparison to the Metropolitan area as a whole. But then again, the geographic area of the cities are also relatively small (if I remember right, Minneapolis is geographically smaller than the City of Sioux Falls, SD - just 3 times as dense). And the development of Minneapolis was extremely progressive in the huge effort that was made to keep parkland and lakes in the city safe from development activities which I would think has not been very common in many other cities.

I have often been confused by the huge preoccupation with suburbs that people have and wonder if it has become such a part of some (predominantly white) Americans' culture that people don't question whether or not it's rational to live in a suburb vs. the city? There's now been a generation or two of adults buying homes that possibly spent their whole lives growing up in suburbs and maybe in that sense it's been their way of life and living in the city is something that they can't even fathom. Let's be honest folks in that we see it ALL the time on these boards - when people from out of state and wholly unfamiliar with anything Minnesota ask about relocating here to take a job in Mpls or St. Paul, despite not knowing anything about the cities proper, it is not even an option for them to consider living there.

I haven't spent too much time living in (and/or maybe familiarizing myself with) other large metropolitan centers like Minneapolis, so I can't speak for other cities or areas of the country as to whether this is the case there, but for someone to be afraid of and/or wholly unwilling to live in Minneapolis or St. Paul proper is borderline insanity - judging by some other posts here, people from other large metropolitan environments seem to view the standard of living/ quality of life in a lot of the cities of Mpls/ St. Paul proper to be better than that of some of their former locales' nicest suburban digs. Often when out of towner family members from suburban/ rural areas visit us here, they continually ask us which suburb our neighborhood is a part of and are seemingly not able to grasp/ comprehend that we're actually in the city's limits (so sometimes to make it easier for them, we tell them that we're just a few blocks away from Robbinsdale).

Anyways, people need to start questioning their decisions. I agree that many people live and work in the suburbs so by living in the suburbs they are actually reducing their commute times and being environmentally conscious which is great. But there are many more where this is not the case. I think as more Americans are forced into having to think about the planet (it's way overdue and stricter regulations will undoubtedly be coming into play in future years), they will be a lot more apt to choose to live a greener existence which will translate to living in the city itself -regardless of what gas prices do.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by golfgal

How is that ANY different then what you see in the cities--looks to me like there are Target's, Barnes and Nobel and all kinds of chain places all over Minneapolis and St. Paul too. Get a clue.

I'm not going to get into the little city-vs.-suburb spat you two are getting into because I find it rather childish, but what you wrote here is just plain absurd. Yes, you will find SOME big box retail, but in the cities you are far more likely to find small, independent businesses that add some local flavor. Go to Uptown, or Grand Avenue, or Lyn-Lake, etc. and you will find lots of quirky, unique small businesses that you would never, ever see in strip malls in most suburbs. A large part of why I prefer city living is precisely so I can walk to/from a wide range of such small, charming shops and restaurants. Still, to each his or her own: clearly plenty of people prefer the suburbs, and that's fine with me even though my tastes differ radically.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

I'm not going to get into the little city-vs.-suburb spat you two are getting into because I find it rather childish, but what you wrote here is just plain absurd. Yes, you will find SOME big box retail, but in the cities you are far more likely to find small, independent businesses that add some local flavor. Go to Uptown, or Grand Avenue, or Lyn-Lake, etc. and you will find lots of quirky, unique small businesses that you would never, ever see in strip malls in most suburbs. A large part of why I prefer city living is precisely so I can walk to/from a wide range of such small, charming shops and restaurants. Still, to each his or her own: clearly plenty of people prefer the suburbs, and that's fine with me even though my tastes differ radically.

The funny thing is that there ARE plenty of independent businesses in the Suburbs and that is what I find so funny about this whole city/suburb 'debate' you aren't participating in. Independent shops/restaurants are not unique to the cities and the same box stores (of which we have NONE in our town) can be found in and around the cities as well. "City" people seem to make some sweeping generalizations about the suburbs which, yes, some fit their mold, but many, many do not.

[Slig]

Where are they? The only independant restaurant I could find in Eagan the year I lived there was Piccolos off of Diffley and Pilot Knob. The town centre comercial center of Eagan probably has 150 different businesses and I would say 140 of those are chain. The area of south Minneapolis where I live now is probably made up of 70% independantly owned, 30% chain. It is a pretty dramatic difference. It's personal preference but I happen to like this aspect of where I live quite a bit. These businesses tend to have better service and a more neighborhood like atmosphere. It also results in more variety in architecture. The further you go out from the cities it seems like corners are cut on everything. Developers try to build the fastest and cheapest as possible and the result is a bunch of identical buildings that are the same color. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with sprawl but it definitely bothers me. It is one of the many reasons I decided to purchase my first home in the city as opposed to out in the suburbs somewhere.

P.S. I would agree that I make generalizations but more than not they are true for most suburbs in the Twin Cities metropolitan area. I've lived in Minneapolis suburbs from 1983-2000, part of 2005 and 2006 and all of 2007 in Blaine, Coon Rapids, Ramsey and Eagan and have worked in Coon Rapids, Andover, Ramsey, Champlin, Plymouth and Eagan so I've seen my fair share of suburbs. It just got old after a while and now I've found it one of my hobbies to rip on the surburbs as much as possible.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by golfgal

The funny thing is that there ARE plenty of independent businesses in the Suburbs and that is what I find so funny about this whole city/suburb 'debate' you aren't participating in. Independent shops/restaurants are not unique to the cities and the same box stores (of which we have NONE in our town) can be found in and around the cities as well. "City" people seem to make some sweeping generalizations about the suburbs which, yes, some fit their mold, but many, many do not.

Really? Tell me what part of what suburb anywhere approaches the density of small, independent shops, stores and restaurants that you see between Lake and Franklin on Lyndale, or along Grand Avenue? It's not like I've never been to the suburbs- I know what I've seen. I am not a "city" person making a sweeping generalization: there are real differences between cities and suburbs - it does not denigrate one to say it does not have the features of the other. Suburbs are in general more spread out, newer, have a much greater proportion of chain restaurants/stores/etc. than cities do. That isn't an incorrect characterization, it's a statement of a real difference. I think you're arguing just to argue at this point.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

Really? Tell me what part of what suburb anywhere approaches the density of small, independent shops, stores and restaurants that you see between Lake and Franklin on Lyndale, or along Grand Avenue? It's not like I've never been to the suburbs- I know what I've seen. I am not a "city" person making a sweeping generalization: there are real differences between cities and suburbs - it does not denigrate one to say it does not have the features of the other. Suburbs are in general more spread out, newer, have a much greater proportion of chain restaurants/stores/etc. than cities do. That isn't an incorrect characterization, it's a statement of a real difference. I think you're arguing just to argue at this point.

Grand Ave has it's share of chain stores too. So do many of these city neighborhoods you speak of. I look around our town and there are NO chain stores in our downtown area at all. Given the population here isn't close to the size of Minneapolis I would say we have an equal concentration of small, independent shops given our size. Even on our shopping strip, we have your typical fast food places but we also have several local shops as well.

Anoka, Wayzata, Lakeville, Hastings, Stillwater, White Bear Lake, Mahtomedi, Chaska, Shakopee are all areas that come to mind that have high concentrations of local shops in their downtown areas.

[akronbball]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Independent shops/restaurants are not unique to the cities and the same box stores (of which we have NONE in our town) can be found in and around the cities as well.

There are some independent stores in the suburbs, but I still think there are far more even off of percentages in the cities. Most suburbs don't have the variety of unique little shops that you can find in the cities. As far as not having any big box, I think you live in Rosemount, so I know there is a Cub Foods there and the new Super Target near the border was probably built with Rosemount in mind.

[Slig]

Originally Posted by golfgal

I look around our town and there are NO chain stores in our downtown area at all. Given the population here isn't close to the size of Minneapolis I would say we have an equal concentration of small, independent shops given our size.

I decided to test this statement out. I went to google maps and found Minneapolis, St. Paul and Rosemount and then searched for food, this is what I came up with:

Minneapolis (hundreds found but I'll just list the first 10)
1. Hell's Kitchen
2. Pizza Luce' Downtown
3. Minneapolis Grand Hotel
4. Chino Latino
5. Nicollet Island Inn
6. Oceanaire Seafood Room
7. Manny's Steakhouse
8. Brit's Pub
9. Solera Restaurant
10. 112 Eatery

St. Paul (hundreds found but I'll just list the first 10)
1. City Center Hotel - St. Paul
2. St Paul Grill
3. Cafe Latte
4. Sakura Restaurant & Sushi Bar
5. W a Frost & Co
6. Forepaugh's
7. Cossetta Italian Market
8. Boca Chica Restaurant
9. Trattoria Da Vinci
10. Red's Savoy Pizza

Rosemount (of 10 found in search, only 2 were actually in Rosemount)
4. Pizza Hut
8. McDonalds

I'm not making this up...