Minneapolis versus Chicago

[AVguy]

wallstreet1986, I really struggle on how to craft an answer to this thread. On one hand, you seem very sensitive to the fact that many law students and lawyers are critical of the profession and advise future law students of a terrible legal market. On the other hand, I feel the need to represent the legal profession and give careful consideration to the reality of the legal market. In my opinion, you really need to do some soul-searching and carefully consider the time commitment and financial risk you take when you attend law school. Lawyers by training and by trade must consider all the facts, not just the facts that they like. Once again, my opinion here, but you seem so wrapped up in going to law school that you put blinders on when any negative facts present themselves. The simple truth is that there are far more law students than there are legal jobs. Way more. I really cannot emphasize that enough. (Retiring baby boomers probably will not have much of an impact on job prospects because of growing law school class sizes and the addition of more law schools. Plus, lawyers, on the whole, do not retire early. Look at how many lawyers are Of Counsel.) You cannot label people naysayers, put your head in the sand, and pretend that these facts do not exist. You must address the facts and consider how you will overcome the circumstances.

You are correct that law schools record fairly high mean salaries. However, I posit that this is the result of incomplete numbers. The young lawyers who get low paying jobs and who do not practice law are grossly underestimated in those figures. These are things to consider when you are making both the educational and financial decision to go to law school. I would strongly encourage you to actually talk to people in the legal profession (instead of relying on selective statistics and untested theories on the legal market) and ask them about the job market and how their classmates are doing. The younger the lawyer the better the source on the current legal market. Obviously many young lawyers get great legal jobs, but most do not. It is a calculated gamble as to whether the student loan payments are worth it, especially if you do not get into your chosen field.

As far as tax law goes, this is a field dominated by accountants. From what I have seen, tax lawyers focus on either tax litigation or drafting documents, such as trusts and wills, but also including more complex agreements, like merger agreements. Accounting firms generally have greater resources at cheaper prices, and thus dominate the field. In the Minneapolis/St. Paul legal market, lawyers generally do not exclusively practice tax law, but instead practice corporate law with a tax practice specialty, or focus on the gamut of issues related to the wealth transfer of individuals, such as working on estate matters, creation and management of trusts, drafting of wills, and perhaps some tax planning, though all of these activities necessarily relate to tax.

Listen, I wish you all the best. But it is a tough market and you are really fooling yourself if you do not think that qualified law students are unemployed or not practicing law. So many of my fellow classmates never got legal jobs or were not employed within nine months of graduation and have really struggled. Thirty to forty years ago you would be eligible for just about any legal job if you had a degree in your hand. Now the high-paying firms in Minneapolis will not even grant interviews to U of MN law students who are not in the top 10% of the class, and the U is a top 20 law school! Please make a careful, deliberate decision based on ALL of the facts to avoid future heartache. Again, good luck and feel free to ask follow up questions.

One last thing, if you are going to practice BIGLAW, Chicago is the place to do it. Bigger firms, more prestige, more money, longer hours, more similarly-situated peers, more types of work, better dining, and more to do outside of work. Chicago really is the big city of the Midwest. (Obviously, this is just my opinion.)

[wallstreet1986]

Well to be honest I'm a smart kid have a lot of talents and skills. I have a 1410 on the SAT and have worked in various positions ranging from an internship with a small Chicago area investment bank to the accounting department of a real estate investment company and have a moderately high GPA but overall not enough to get into a really good law school. I studied like hell and retook the LSAT and got a tier 3 quality score. The process has been very frustrating and I feel very undervalued throughout the whole process.

There is quite a bit to be said about the law school system with studying and grading and academic success. Often such things are not telling about the quality of making a good lawyer and can bar great candidates from ending up in top law firms where their skills really belong. However, at this point, I have not begun much of a job search and if I am looking at the financial analyst or consulting field, I will have more of a difficult time finding a really great position at this time of year.

I appreciate your comments AVguy. I want to spare myself pain and do the best I can to get in a situation where I can use my skills and really shine. My problem-solving ability, ability to decipher and work with complex figures and create strategies, etc would be a skill useful in the finance area of a major corporation or as I had been interested in, the practice of tax law.

I guess I have shot myself in the foot with looking exclusively at law schools -- from what I take of it getting in the top 40 percent etc at a tier 3 like Samford or Mississippi College would not be sufficient to get me a decent good sized law firm job in a city like Birmingham or even Atlanta. From a financial standpoint also the Return on Investment figure is not nearly high enough. 140k in debt at age 22 is a bad proposition. However, I will look where I get accepted, if I get offered any money and keep options open. Thank you again for your input.

[AVguy]

Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders and will come out all right. I really emphasize with you regarding the law school application process. You really do feel like a number as you compare your stats to law school stats, and realize that you cannot attend certain institutions, not based on your potential, but based mostly on a test score. Another frustrating aspect is that your LSAT score is the single greatest factor in predicting your 1L grades, which determines whether or not you can get into BIGLAW.

Based on your earlier posts, a career in finance or accounting could be a very viable option. Financial analyst positions provide a nice launching pad into the business world. Financial advisor positions can also provide good money, of course, income can vary greatly by month. Amerprise and Thrivent Financial are both based out of Minneapolis and I believe that these people do pretty well. Chicago would have even more of these positions.

You also may want to consider a master's program in accounting or tax, if you are still interested in getting into tax. The MBT program at the U of M, for example, does not require an accounting undergraduate degree and you can sit for the CPA exam after you graduate. Just another option.

Keep being optimistic and fortitudinous and you will find a good career. Good luck.

[Frank the Tank]

I'm an attorney at a large law firm in Chicago and went to DePaul for law school. One thing that I didn't realize until I was actually in law school is that unless you go to one of the top 15 or so law schools in the country, your employment prospects are tied almost completely to your law school's home region. Even graduates from tier 1 Big Ten law schools other than Michigan and Northwestern have few opportunities outside of the Midwest. Therefore, if you don't think you're getting into one of the top schools, I think you ought to pick a law school in a location that you're pretty sure that you want to live and work in. After that, your first-year grades are going to be a huge factor in determining your employment prospects in terms of large law firms (I think this is a pretty ridiculous system, but it is what it is). At the end of the day, I really enjoy being an attorney and it's a privilege to be in this profession, but be sure to take into account the potential roadblocks. Good luck with everything.

[Mojo Riley]

Originally Posted by wallstreet1986

Hi I'm looking at law schools in the Twin Cities and had posted here a while earlier ago on that.

What are the Twin Cities like as compared to Chicago?

Here are things I don't like about Chicago + burbs

Traffic
Fast Pace
Sprawl
Distance from Lakes, Mountains, wilderness attractions
Competitive enough that I didn't get into a law school there
Snobby and surprisingly small gay scene
High Cost of Parking, Living etc.
the people somewhat -- some are friendly, some not, its a sports town and a lot of yuppie acting people

Here are things I do like about Chicago:

The shopping
Gay people are accepted and tolerated
Restaurants
Plays/Entertainment

What are some positives and negatives about Minneapolis and St Paul? Additionally, MSP is much closer to the Northwoods and I love skiing, snowmobiling, canoeing in the summer and hope some day to live in Duluth or at least smaller sized city than Chicago in any case.

Oy. OK, you should take what I say here with a grain of salt....here goes. I *strongly* caution you to avoid law school and find another field that uses your skills and offers you better options than law.

I say this as a 3L about to graduate, and I *wish* that I had taken the advice of the enormous number of lawyers who cautioned me against the legal field. I thought "well perhaps lawyers are just more apt to complain. I'll find an area of law or a smaller firm lifestyle that doesn't require me to sell my soul and my health"

I got into a few of the lower-ranked Chicago area schools (Kent, John Marshall, and Loyola) with all of them offering a little bit of money ($3000-$9000 a year) but took the advice that everyone offered, and went to the highest ranked school that accepted me- the University of Minnesota. I thought I would have respectable options with a degree from a top-20 school, and that I could expect to improve my quality of life with a legal degree. Silly me....

I did poorly first year- and then rocked the past 2 years. Did that improvement matter? Nope. I had a job clerking over my 2l summer and through the past year (Friday was my last day) at a small firm here in town that I got solely because of a connection with a classmate. I loved the people there, and enjoyed my experience (despite my misgivings about the actual practice of law), but I was making $17 an hour- FAR less than I made waiting tables in Chicago. And needless to say, being a smaller firm, they could not offer me a permanent position.

Career Services Office is an utter joke at the U- unless you have top 20% grades AND law review, they have nothing useful to offer to you in the way of advice or strategy, except for "Well start cold-calling and knocking on doors." Gee, thanks. So much for your talk about being a "prestigious" school with excellent options for your graduates.

So here I am, graduating with (including undergraduate loans) $200,000 in debt and no options that I can see. My BF (who I met here at school) and I are at our wits end- we both wake up in a cold sweat and wonder how the hell we could have been so misguided as to think that we were, in essence, "purchasing a better future" with our massive debtload. I regularly see postings for attorney jobs paying $45,000 a year. Now I was not driven by dreams of a huge salary, and I knew coming in that I did not want a big firm job, but I did think (stupidly) that when I graduated I would be able to pay off loans, and oh, I don't know, maybe buy a house at some point. I was wrong. I never in a million years thought that I would be living a lower quality of life with a law degree. But here I am....

The Minneapolis market is freaking flooded- we're talking 4 law schools (and believe me, the fact that only ONE of those is a top-tier school doesn't make a wit of difference- many, many firms here only want to hire grads from whatever school they went to) AND now we have 100 attorneys from the recently defunct Rider-Bennett on the street come May also looking for jobs. I have absolutely NO faith that we will find work here with that kind of competition.

We spend our nights thinking of creative ways to get rid of our debt, but good luck with that-however dire your situation, discharging student loans in a BK is virtually impossible. We are at a loss, and both of us are sinking deeper and deeper into depression with each passing day. At this point I'm considering applying for Irish citizenship and getting the hell out of here if I can't find work within 7-8 months. At least in Ireland I would have health insurance even if I was unemployed. Best of luck with that here.


To sum up:
1- lawyers are almost uniformly miserable, bitter, dull automatons. With good reason. The work sucks, the hours suck, and you're never going to see your family or friends if you're "lucky" enough to get a "good" job. You really need to look at the stats on lawyer depression, divorce, alcoholism, and suicide. They're sobering to say the least...
2- law students are no better (We like to call the school "the palace of dull minds"- we have a great small group of friends here, but the majority of others are the stereotype of a Type A dullard who think that discussing the latest Memo they wrote (in mind-numbing detail) is an acceptable social conversation.
3- the job outlook sucks- see above and reread as needed.
4- you are mortgaging your future with an expensive law degree that might actually give you worse options than you had before- and you will not be able to afford to go out and get another degree in a different field even if you wanted to get one.
5- there is a 90% chance you will NOT be in the top 10% of your class. If the odds are right, you'll be wishing like hell that you went to pharma school or vet school. Be prepared to get treated like the biggest piece of crap on earth for even daring to apply to (low-paying, smaller firm) jobs with less than stellar stats. ALL the legal employers feel entitled to ask for top credentials, even when they're only paying $40,000 a year.
6- I didn't listen, and I don't expect you to either, but for what it's worth, think it over.


Oh yeah, and Minneapolis, is NOTHING like Chicago. People are *nice* but not very outgoing- they all have friends already (from high school or whatever) and most are not interested in widening their circle. In Chicago, making friends was a piece of cake because there are more transplants looking to get out and meet people. Keep that in mind. To the best of my knowledge, the gay scene is pretty active though. Most here are very open-minded and you will not a problem with small-minded homophobes. (at least not from what I've seen).

The food leaves SOOOO much to be desired that I couldn't begin to tell you. When I'm home in Chicago, all I want to do is eat and eat and eat (and I'm a skinny girl) because everything here is so flavorless. Do not take recommendations here because their standards are far different from what you're probably used to.

The outlying areas are really beautiful here (if you actually ever have time to see them). BUT, you should keep in mind that Minneapolis has all of the annoyances of a big city, but few of the amenities as compared to Chicago.
Traffic is a nightmare because the city never kept up with the growth. PT is practically non-existent and you will need a car to get most anywhere.

Real estate here is ridiculously expensive and the "posh" areas here are slums compared to Chicago. My BF and I always pull out the "Info Tubes" on the homes for sale and laugh and laugh and laugh at the crazy prices they're asking. I'd take a smaller place in Chicago any day of the week- at least I would be *in Chicago* for that price.


Anyway, this all probably sounds cruel and unnecessarily gloomy. It's not. It's the truth. And I wish I'd listened to the truth myself. Because right now, I really feel like I ruined my life beyond any possible repair.

[JJHA]

I will say that I am hugely disappointed in the 'hard' numbers I face as a lawyer:

1) Attended law school in Chicago - not U of C or Northwestern

2) Not top 10%

Bottom line: Life, career, and financesare a huge struggle.

I picked a lawschool that was "known" as having a "top ten" specialty program and I soon found after beginning school that there was NO acceptable job opportunities after graduation if not top 10-15% by end of 1st year, and NO acceptable job opportunities in the supposed specialty program job market during, or after law school.

In sum, I believe I was bamboozled.

Now 7 years out I am lucky to have one semi reliable small corp client and becasue I have despied the jobs and people I worked with and for my first 3 years after graduation I am starting my own practice, *hoping* to actually do something with a semi-interesting niche I have come accross. I would not bet the farm on financial success at this point.

Salesmen and union laborers make far more than I have made most years. I have massive debt, a used car, and old clothes. And I grew up thinking I was pretty smart and intelectually creative.

The pisser? I WENT to law school because I hated the jobs I could get after graduating from a decent college!!

BUT: There are nice and somewhat uplifting "soft" facts: I DO have more respect for myself for accomplishing what I have. I DO become accepted in more prestigious social circles, first because as a lawyer instantly I have _some_ credibility and sometimes my personality shines.

My family is happy for me, and I do get opportunities (so far non-paying) to serve on boards and non-lawyers seem to assume that I may have something worth saying. Non-college educated intellectually dull rich folks and I now hae something to talk about - high billable rates of their attorneys.

My first job after being rejected by 100 of the finest large Chicago firms and failing to find any jobs in my 'speciality' was on LaSalle Street in the heart of the downtown legal & financial district. I got to earn a salary of $36,500, so automobile rear-end personal injury cases, and the secretary I shared was basically a welfare-to-work lazy young gal who sent out my litigation letters after up to 2 weeks after I dictated them.

Okay, one more upside: I having the luck of being struck by lightening (percentage wise mind you) I got a temp job which turned into a permanent offer working with a solo senior attorney who is the nicest best guy I could ever hope to work for. For two years out of the four I worked for him, I actually began to make good money - between about $85-$100k.

But now after four years his business has dried up, I am old enough 7 years out of law school that I face age discrimination of a sort (I am over 30) and I still face being completely unable to tap into any respectable firm due to what? My non-Uof C non-Northwestern law school, and not being top 10%.

What else can I do? Honestly, I dont know any other way that gives me at least somewhat realistic hope other than being a lawyer of becoming involved in my community in a a role I am interested in, just now being able to possibly grow a business I might really like, have a small but realistic chance at financial success, and has brought me to having way more useful practicle knowledge about the 'real world' to climb higher and maybe someday have the type of recognition I had hoped 15 years ago I'd clearly have by now.

What a mixed bag of nuts being part of the majority of lawyers is. Is is this bad for doctors? Damn, I wish I could have passed organic chemistry...at least I think I wish for that.

JJHA

[yellowsnow]

Originally Posted by JJHA

I will say that I am hugely disappointed in the 'hard' numbers I face as a lawyer:

1) Attended law school in Chicago - not U of C or Northwestern

2) Not top 10%

Bottom line: Life, career, and financesare a huge struggle.

I picked a lawschool that was "known" as having a "top ten" specialty program and I soon found after beginning school that there was NO acceptable job opportunities after graduation if not top 10-15% by end of 1st year, and NO acceptable job opportunities in the supposed specialty program job market during, or after law school.

In sum, I believe I was bamboozled.

Now 7 years out I am lucky to have one semi reliable small corp client and becasue I have despied the jobs and people I worked with and for my first 3 years after graduation I am starting my own practice, *hoping* to actually do something with a semi-interesting niche I have come accross. I would not bet the farm on financial success at this point.

Salesmen and union laborers make far more than I have made most years. I have massive debt, a used car, and old clothes. And I grew up thinking I was pretty smart and intelectually creative.

The pisser? I WENT to law school because I hated the jobs I could get after graduating from a decent college!!

BUT: There are nice and somewhat uplifting "soft" facts: I DO have more respect for myself for accomplishing what I have. I DO become accepted in more prestigious social circles, first because as a lawyer instantly I have _some_ credibility and sometimes my personality shines.

My family is happy for me, and I do get opportunities (so far non-paying) to serve on boards and non-lawyers seem to assume that I may have something worth saying. Non-college educated intellectually dull rich folks and I now hae something to talk about - high billable rates of their attorneys.

My first job after being rejected by 100 of the finest large Chicago firms and failing to find any jobs in my 'speciality' was on LaSalle Street in the heart of the downtown legal & financial district. I got to earn a salary of $36,500, so automobile rear-end personal injury cases, and the secretary I shared was basically a welfare-to-work lazy young gal who sent out my litigation letters after up to 2 weeks after I dictated them.

Okay, one more upside: I having the luck of being struck by lightening (percentage wise mind you) I got a temp job which turned into a permanent offer working with a solo senior attorney who is the nicest best guy I could ever hope to work for. For two years out of the four I worked for him, I actually began to make good money - between about $85-$100k.

But now after four years his business has dried up, I am old enough 7 years out of law school that I face age discrimination of a sort (I am over 30) and I still face being completely unable to tap into any respectable firm due to what? My non-Uof C non-Northwestern law school, and not being top 10%.

What else can I do? Honestly, I dont know any other way that gives me at least somewhat realistic hope other than being a lawyer of becoming involved in my community in a a role I am interested in, just now being able to possibly grow a business I might really like, have a small but realistic chance at financial success, and has brought me to having way more useful practicle knowledge about the 'real world' to climb higher and maybe someday have the type of recognition I had hoped 15 years ago I'd clearly have by now.

What a mixed bag of nuts being part of the majority of lawyers is. Is is this bad for doctors? Damn, I wish I could have passed organic chemistry...at least I think I wish for that.

JJHA

Anyone who can make it through law school can pass organic chemistry. It only looks intimidating. If you can follow a recipe, you can do it.

Your post is articulate and intelligent. Perhaps those are the skills that will pay in the end. There are opportunities out there for you. Most of them are probably not traditionally positions lawyers would consider. Try taking yourself out of the lawyer box and view the problem with a fresh perspective.

I wish you luck!