Minneapolis versus Chicago (Duluth: lawyer, job market, best school)

[wallstreet1986]

Hi I'm looking at law schools in the Twin Cities and had posted here a while earlier ago on that.

What are the Twin Cities like as compared to Chicago?

Here are things I don't like about Chicago + burbs

Traffic
Fast Pace
Sprawl
Distance from Lakes, Mountains, wilderness attractions
Competitive enough that I didn't get into a law school there
Snobby and surprisingly small gay scene
High Cost of Parking, Living etc.
the people somewhat -- some are friendly, some not, its a sports town and a lot of yuppie acting people

Here are things I do like about Chicago:

The shopping
Gay people are accepted and tolerated
Restaurants
Plays/Entertainment

What are some positives and negatives about Minneapolis and St Paul? Additionally, MSP is much closer to the Northwoods and I love skiing, snowmobiling, canoeing in the summer and hope some day to live in Duluth or at least smaller sized city than Chicago in any case.

[Minnehahapolitan]

Minneapolis, I feel, has a slower pace than Chicago. The people are certainly nicer. (probably b/c of the pace). We are closer to the woods, wilderness, skiing, et al. , They do have us with Lake Mich. though. We sprawl just as much as Chicago for our size (I know, unfortunate). I can't tell you about law schools, and I don't know a whole lot about the gay scene here. Gays seem to integrate better into the city, there is not really a particularly Gay neioghborhood (perhaps Loring Park). There aren't alot of bars, but there will be no(at I have ever heard of) discrimination. Minneapolis is expensive by regional standards, but you will get by on most any pay. As for shopping, restaurants and culture. I think you will find the same quality amnenities, but fewer of them because of our size difference. It has been said that Minneapolitans are conservative in their food. There are alot of American style restaurents, but ethnic food is still found in urban nrighborhoods. Generally, people say that Minneapolis is a small Chicago, but how far the analogy can be taken is arbitrary.

[Bhaalspawn]

If you had a hard time getting into a law school in the Chicago area, in which case you probably won't be attending a first tier law school, then my advice is to try to gain admission to a law school where you would have in-state tuition. It's important to graduate with as little debt as possible. By the way, you may wish to know that although the Twin Cities would be a great place to live, it might not be the best place to launch a legal career because it has an unusually high lawyer-to-population ratio relative to other states. (I'm not just saying that; I've conducted actual research into this issue.)

[wallstreet1986]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

If you had a hard time getting into a law school in the Chicago area, in which case you probably won't be attending a first tier law school, then my advice is to try to gain admission to a law school where you would have in-state tuition. It's important to graduate with as little debt as possible. By the way, you may wish to know that although the Twin Cities would be a great place to live, it might not be the best place to launch a legal career because it has an unusually high lawyer-to-population ratio relative to other states. (I'm not just saying that; I've conducted actual research into this issue.)

Yeah the law school admissions thing totally blows. I'm from PA and my state schools are every bit as expensive as a private college. 28k a year for penn state instate.

I have about a 3.4 and have taken many tough courses including differential equations and two years of physics. I'm a business and french major now (definite gpa booster :-) ). I took the LSAT twice the biggest nightmare test and killed myself studying for it with logic reasoning games etc and got a 147 first try and a lot more effort and total focus the second time got a 154. I got a 1410 on the SAT go figure.

I am looking mostly at law schools in the South/Southeast but the catch 22 is most of the state schools are either a bit harder to get into/borderline for my scores or I will have to go to a private tuition private school and take on more debt. Hope to go to Ole Miss or USC, kept William Mitchell a thought because it has a good repute in the larger market there. If not I will have to pay 80-140k for a legal education. I have no other option because its the career I really want to do and I did an internship in it, enjoyed it and feel I would be great at it. I consider myself smart and above average on stuff but for the law school admissions part, the bar is fairly high. Well wish me luck I should get some decisions the next few weeks.

[wallstreet1986]

Also I'm interested in tax law a field that I think will grow, has a good demand in the area and look for more places with growing business and retirees. I bet if I talked to someone about any states though they would say there are too many lawyers in places. Enough naysaying. Baby boomers are going to retire someday from their posts and they will need services.

[Bhaalspawn]

Maybe you could try this. Gain admission to a state university that has reasonable in-state tuition and then try to delay your admission by a year, giving you time to move into the state and establish legal domicile a full one year before the school year would begin.

Did you try for Ohio State University, which I think is lower first tier?

[yellowsnow]

Originally Posted by wallstreet1986

Also I'm interested in tax law a field that I think will grow, has a good demand in the area and look for more places with growing business and retirees. I bet if I talked to someone about any states though they would say there are too many lawyers in places. Enough naysaying. Baby boomers are going to retire someday from their posts and they will need services.

Have you checked out patent law? Pays well and you don't have all those pesky clients! Especially if you are logical and capable of understanding bio-tech. Talent will pay the bills but I've found your alma mater follows you forever as a lawyer. I hope you go to the best school you can! Doesn't matter where it is located. Best of luck!

[wallstreet1986]

No I haven't yet. I think they have it big in Huntsville, science, biotech companies and nice mountains and going to one of my Southeast schools will get me in there. As for cheap schools I can get into if I dont get into South Carolina or Ole Miss that is history. I dont want to go to UNebraska or Kansas and those are the other easy state schools. Alabama and Georgia are out of sight for me although they have good reps.

Thanks for the wishs everyone.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by yellowsnow

Have you checked out patent law? Pays well and you don't have all those pesky clients! Especially if you are logical and capable of understanding bio-tech. Talent will pay the bills but I've found your alma mater follows you forever as a lawyer. I hope you go to the best school you can! Doesn't matter where it is located. Best of luck!

To do patent law you need to have a technical background of some sort--a science or engineering degree. Then you need to pass the Patent Bar Exam, which really isn't a huge issue. (Without a sufficient technical background you will not be allowed to sit for the Patent Bar Exam.)

The big problem is actually being able to get a job in the field. For biotech patent law you'd better have either a Ph.D. and graduate from a reputable law school with good grades OR graduate from a top ten or twenty law school and also have at least at least a bachelor's degree, preferably in hardcore chemistry or biochemistry. Ten years ago a BS in chemistry and graduation from a merely decent law school was enough to get a patent law job. That was then. Today those same people wouldn't even receive rejection letters to their resumes. The gravy train in the biotech patent law field left the station years ago.

I know it sounds like a good career field, and it is if you can get a job in it, but trust me, there is a large oversupply of people who are qualified to practice biotech patent law and you more or less need a Ph.D. in order to get hired by a law firm to do that today, even at the smaller boutique shops.

For patent law, he'd be better off getting an electrical engineering degree (BSEE is fine) first and then going to law school. However, that field has a very high barrier to entry which is having to have excellent mathematical aptitude. The job market is better for electrical engineering patent lawyers because the job market for electrical engineer non-lawyers is decent and there is far more electrical engineering R&D than there is biotech R&D and thus many more inventions, so EEs don't have as much reason to flee the field they were really interested in for law school. In contrast, our nation has a large oversupply of life sciences PhDs, which is why so many of them fled the career graveyard of science for law school. (I suspect that the percentage of life sciences PhDs who went on to become patent lawyers who also considered becoming lawyers when they began their science graduate studies is less than half-a-percent.)

I don't know Wallstreet's situation, but if he would be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar Exam and he has a bachelor's in chemistry or the life sciences and he's interested in patent law, his best bet might be to try to become a non-patent law non-science litigator and/or trial lawyer first and acquire a couple years worth of experience and then pass the Patent Bar Exam and then apply to law firms in the hopes of doing IP litigation. The litigation and trial experience would be his selling point.

[wallstreet1986]

Well to be honest it was a suggestion from a guy and not a huge serious consideration.

I said I wanted to do tax law and that has been my primary focus with getting a tax LLM at a good school or just getting a Masters in Accounting/JD as is offered at several of my schools.

Seems like there is an oversupply of everything if you listen to people. 65 percent of grads get jobs at graduation and 95 percent within 6 months. Avg starting salary for the class at Samford around $62,000. And that's not brought up by tons of huge law either. More med sized firms. Can't seem to be doing to bad huh

In any case if you are good at something like tax law which I would imagine isn't oversupplied as medical malpractice or even the biotech thing then I think you can do well and fine. Always going to be someone telling me the opposite but I'm going to damn well drown it out and not drive myself nuts as a 21 year old charting his path to success in the world. Pick and stick is the idea. Stick with it.

I have a BA in Business and French. Only bar I'm taking is Alabama Bar etc. Patent law bar wow lol and there's still a glut. I have no interest in litigation hate going to court.