Suburb gangs (Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnetonka: sale, apartment, foreclosures)

[uptown_urbanist]

I was going to stay out of this, but now that the school thing has been drawn in I can't stop myself. First, plenty of kids in the city public schools do very well. I went to a Minneapolis Public Schol (did IB, too, and can tell you that there were far more than 99 kids in the program - maybe that 99 number was just those who were formal candidates for the IB diploma? That's a separate thing from taking the IB courses or tests) and rubbing shoulders with poor kids did not somehow taint me. There are plenty of poor kids who do well in school. Yes, there are kids who don't have the support of their families or who face all sorts of challenges, but luckily the Twin Cities have a strong history of parents of all backgrounds sending their kids to public schools. If you believe in the peer influence factor, then I think you can argue that having kids from families who care about education (regardless of income level) can be a positive influence on everyone.

I want to see the numbers proving your theory that if you took the top 1% of suburban students and compared them to Minneapolis/St. Paul's public school's top 1% students that the suburban students would "far outdistance" the Minneapolis students. It's just not true. There are smart, motivated kids in both the suburbs and in the cities, and they are able to thrive in both locations.

I'm a graduate of the Minneapolis Public Schools, and have done just fine in life. Did the IB program, took (and did well on) AP tests, did well on the SAT/ACT, got multiple merit scholarships to cover most of my school, and went to grad school on a full fellowship. I was writing newspaper columns while in high school, published in academic journals while in college, and a book soon after. Somehow I must have pulled a fast one over my professors, employers, and editors, I guess, because they never realized that as a city kid at heart (and all that exposure to other city kids) meant that I was lazy, uneducated, or whatever other accusations you want to throw my way. I'm not the odd one out, either - my fellow classmates have gone on to be Fulbright Scholars, doctors, architects, professors, teachers, journalists, and social workers, among other things. In fact one of them might be the one treating you if you ever end up the ER. These are not unusual stories - city kids can, and are, successful (and, of course, there are also plenty of definitions of success that don't involve AP or IB tests or college degrees, for that matter). Not all of my classmates thrived, of course, but neither do all suburban kids.

I don't like the suburbs, and I don't like most suburban school districts. I pretty much leave them alone, though, as I'm sure that kids can get a decent education there. I don't get where people can channel this irrational hatred of Minneapolis (or St. Paul) Public Schools and spout off bogus facts implying that all kids, even those with involved parents who care, can't get a good education in the city schools. I care as much about education and giving my child a good life as any suburban parent, and I'm sending him to the MPS when that time comes. A quality education experience also includes knowing kids from other economic rungs and other ethnic backgrounds, and it's simply easier to find that diversity in the city.

I don't really know why I bother writing, as this isn't going to change any minds, but perhaps some newcomer to the Twin Cities will read it and won't get sucked into the misguided belief that all city schools are "bad" and all (or most) suburban schools are "good." It's just not that simple.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by nick is rulz

Name one neighborhood in North Minneapolis that doesnt have a boarded up house.

Im not trying to be patronizing, but the the point that he was trying to make speaks volumes about the quality of the housing.

Name one neighborhood in the Metro that doesn't have a boarded up house right now (or perhaps if there are cities that shy away from "boarding", which Minneapolis definitely doesn't, name one neighborhood that doesn't have a vacant foreclosure right now). Yes, there are more than SW Mpls and other areas 'over north', but come drive around my house sometime Nick and take a look around for yourself. From Upton to Xerxes, there have not been many foreclosures, and the last one I can remember (that sold within probably a week if that) is currently being completely gutted/ rehabbed and a full second story is being added to it (and although I generally wouldn't be a fan of the destruction of the bungalow character, but they seem to be doing it in relatively good taste).

[talktobrent]

Look at any city on these forums, and somewhere on the first page there seems to be a "gangs" thread. If you were a foreigner browsing these forums you would think American cities are filled with roaming gangs of kids looking for innocent people to rob or kill. The problem is, we categorize gangs too liberally, which only feeds their ego. A group of petty youth vandals suddenly gets categorized as a gang under the right circumstances. Someone that moves into an apartment complex in the suburbs and decides they're a "crip," doesn't mean they're mailed a packet from South Central LA and receive their official bandana in 7-10 working days. If you look at the history of any street gang, they almost always form out of a certain ethnic, racial, or social class being alienated or threatened in their community. Yes, most gangs as we know them these days are simply about social affiliations and drug dealing territory, but I'm saying that they don't exist with a mantra to prey on innocent people. Not saying it doesn't happen, but that's why you see it on the news when it does. It's not commonplace. Look at the data for America's most crime ridden cities, and factor out the gang on gang or drug related violence, and the picture looks a lot better. Again, I'm not saying every neighborhood is fine and dandy as long as you don't associate with gangs, but I certainly don't think worrying about which gang controls a neighborhood is a viable concern when moving to a new city, and certainly not a typical suburb.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

Name one neighborhood in the Metro that doesn't have a boarded up house right now (or perhaps if there are cities that shy away from "boarding", which Minneapolis definitely doesn't, name one neighborhood that doesn't have a vacant foreclosure right now). Yes, there are more than SW Mpls and other areas 'over north', but come drive around my house sometime Nick and take a look around for yourself. From Upton to Xerxes, there have not been many foreclosures, and the last one I can remember (that sold within probably a week if that) is currently being completely gutted/ rehabbed and a full second story is being added to it (and although I generally wouldn't be a fan of the destruction of the bungalow character, but they seem to be doing it in relatively good taste).

There are no vacant houses, boarded up houses or houses in foreclosure in my neighborhood. In fact, there are not any in the surrounding neighborhoods either. There is only ONE house for sale in my neighborhood and that is because of a job transfer.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

Please provide links to empirical data, articles, "information provided by the schools", surveys, or other studies that reflect your claims on this topic. Actually I haven't seen anything statistically significant data to support that 196 is "tops" as you so often claim.



I see- that must be the argument that District 196ers use to justify why 17 of their 30 schools didn't make 'adequate yearly progress' last year, primarily in the area of minority and low-income students, correct? And doesn't 196 segregate all of their special ed or "alternative" students at a very young age? (must be a way to keep the 'mainstream' test scores up). I stated myself that students from poorer backgrounds with things going on at home are more likely to have difficulties in school- this doesn't mean that this is a rule or even happens the majority of the time, there are many low-income schools where the majority of their students are successful. I think low-income students are probably likely to do worse when the vast majority of students at their school come from often-cliquish middle/ upper class backgrounds. And there has never been any evidence to support that being around poor kids that underperform "rubs off" on anyone- it's not the plague golfgal.



Top High Schools in Minnesota - 2009 | GreatSchools

All jazzed up on the North Side

Measure for measure, teaching approach gaining popularity

There are links and quotes to everything I posted about here and elsewhere. I am not going to spend the time to find them all. If you want to see the date, look for it. No, 196 schools do not segregate their special ed kids. They do have a school for special ed kids if people so choose but it is for kids with extreme special needs who would not take any standardized tests to begin with so it has no bearing on the results what so ever.

Our kids' middle school was on that list this year. They didn't make "adequate yearly progress" because their test scores went from 98% to 97%, but a school that goes from 43% to 44% is a 'good" school? Yes, this makes sense. The system for reporting is flawed.

Spend some time in the schools, look at the kids and the attitudes. Drive and motivation most certainly do rub off on kids, especially in the middle and high school grades. Kids get teased for doing too well in some schools and thus don't work up to potential. Yes, there are some kids that do just fine but when you have less then a 50% graduation rate how can you say that the majority of the kids do just fine. The numbers don't add up. Yes, there are kids that do just fine in the Minneapolis schools. The IB article that the Trib had stated that the IB enrollment was declining, thus the reason for the article. Things change. As for cliquish suburban schools, ALL schools have cliques. Try being a latino kid getting into a Somali group of friends-not going to happen very often. People gravitate toward like people-whether that is because of a common ethnic background, a common interest, whatever.

Show me the test scores where the majority of the students are low income where the kids are performing above grade level. You will be hard pressed to find one.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Show me the test scores where the majority of the students are low income where the kids are performing above grade level. You will be hard pressed to find one.

Note that in 2007, Loring School (80% free/ reduced lunch) 5th graders did better than District 196's Cedar Park elementary in Math. This and other interesting comparisons below:

80% free and reduced lunch- Minneapolis Public Schools
Loring Elementary School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN


45% free and reduced lunch- District 196
Cedar Park Elementary School Test Scores - Apple Valley, Minnesota - MN

46% free/ reduced lunch comparison- Minneapolis Public Schools
Seward Elementary School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN

Looks like the 4th & 5th graders at the comparative MPS- Seward are substantially exceeding their peers at District 196- Cedar Park in test scores.

And to view the test scores of a Minneapolis Public School that has similar demographics to most other District 196 schools, go here:
Lake Harriet Upper School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN

[Slig]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

Note that in 2007, Loring School (80% free/ reduced lunch) 5th graders did better than District 196's Cedar Park elementary in Math. This and other interesting comparisons below:

80% free and reduced lunch- Minneapolis Public Schools
Loring Elementary School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN


45% free and reduced lunch- District 196
Cedar Park Elementary School Test Scores - Apple Valley, Minnesota - MN

46% free/ reduced lunch comparison- Minneapolis Public Schools
Seward Elementary School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN

Looks like the 4th & 5th graders at the comparative MPS- Seward are substantially exceeding their peers at District 196- Cedar Park in test scores.

And to view the test scores of a Minneapolis Public School that has similar demographics to most other District 196 schools, go here:
Lake Harriet Upper School Test Scores - Minneapolis, Minnesota - MN

I've heard alot of good things about Seward Elementary. One of my neighbors sends his daughter there and she is doing really well there and they seem to like it alot. I will strongly consider sending my future kids there if we decide to go the public school route.

Meanwhile there are a few other elementary/middle schools in the area that have struggled for years and I'm sure they are dragging down alot of the numbers for the district, Folwell Middle School comes to mind.

[uptown_urbanist]

My brothers went to Seward, and I went to the same program before it was located at Seward; we all a good experience there. My only problem with Seward, actually, is that I hate the building.

And Golfgal, your response doesn't address the statistics about the top 1% of Minneapolis students being inferior ("vastly outdistanced") to the top 1% of suburban students. I have spent time in the schools, my mother worked in the schools until recently, and I have read the statistics. I haven't seen this magical 1% statistic anywhere, and while I haven't crunched the raw data myself (but I bet you haven't, either) a look at the numbers doesn't seem to support that assertion.

Things change, but they don't change that much that fast. I'm not THAT old. I was never teased for doing well in school - again, there were a lot of kids who did well - and, while I know things like that can happen, I can assure you that it's not just a city problem.

As for IB numbers falling, I didn't see that particular article, but I can 100% guarantee you that there are more than 99 kids in the Minneapolis system taking IB classes, or who are technically in the IB program. 99 kids is not enough to keep full programs in two high schools going. In 2007 Southwest alone had 43 IB diploma candidates (seniors), and 170 seniors taking IB courses. That's in addition to all the lower level students taking classes (the tests themselves come in Junior and Senior year).

Making the Grade - Minnesota Monthly - September 2008 - Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnesota

So great, public city schools are not for you. Fine. Why spend so much time and energy trying to paint a picture that a kid - even one with parents who care about education - entering the system is doomed for failure? That's simply not true. There are problems, certainly, but there are also many concerned and caring parents, wonderful faculty, and a lot of community support. Besides, what society needs as a whole are community members who care about their students - all of them - and are willing to stand up for the schools and help them to do a better job in educating all students - not just twist around statistics and write off an entire system, try to tell people that even the top students are inferior, and otherwise try to convince yourself and everyone else that those who attend a city school are almost certainly doomed for failure. If the "rub off" theory were true, then isn't it even more important that parents who care keep their kids in the system? My son is going to MPS because I believe in both a quality education for him AND for his fellow students. The schools are part of the community, and I'm going to do my part to support them - not abandon them while simultaneously trying to destroy them through misinformation.

[uptown_urbanist]

And what's more, I'm not trying to say that EVERY kid in a Minneapolis school is doing fine. Obviously there is room for improvement. I'm saying that the average kid with parents who care - the kind of parent who goes to the trouble of posting here and wants to know if a school is "good" or not - is going to do just fine in a city school setting.

[Minnehahapolitan]

Originally Posted by golfgal

There are no vacant houses, boarded up houses or houses in foreclosure in my neighborhood. In fact, there are not any in the surrounding neighborhoods either. There is only ONE house for sale in my neighborhood and that is because of a job transfer.

That is such a transparent lie I have to wonder how anyone listens to you. You must consider your neighborhood to only be the block that you live on. Edina Realty has 17 foreclosed properties listed in Rosemount. They aren't concentrated in one area, either. They are spread right across the city. 217 properties are for sale in the 55068 ZIP code. Again, spread across the entire city. So maybe you can realize that Rosemount's s*** stinks just like the rest of our's. Maybe you should stop harping on Powderhorn's boarded properties when they exist right in your backyard too. The only difference between a vacant house in Powderhorn and a vacant house in Rosemount is that Rosemount is too good to actually put plywood over the windows. The only difference between a Rosemount kid taking oxycontin from their parents' medicine cabinet and a drug dealer at North High is that the kid at North High is smart enough to make money off it. Stop kidding yourself.