Newsweek School Rankings

[Clifford63]

Originally Posted by golfgal

If you read the criteria for the one from the MN Dept of ED it takes into consideration the kids that move out of the district. I quoted several different sources, including the Minneapolis public schools themselves and they all say the same thing.

School Report Card : Academic Excellence : Minnesota Department of Education

This is the proficiency scores from Henry-these kids are graduating??? As for the Star Trib article, where do they get their data because it seems the information they use matches the second graph on the dept of ed link that doesn't take into consideration drop outs. A drop out is not someone that moved to another district, that is someone that moved, these numbers are adjusted for that. As for the drop outs moving to the suburbs and would they finish, maybe a few of them would if they were able to hang out with some kids that put more value on getting an education but in general, no because they lack the family support to finish school. Like I have said over and over and over, it isn't so much the schools in Minneapolis but the atmosphere and the students that attend the school. If more then half of your classmates are going to drop out, what motivation is there for you to continue of your family doesn't care vs being one of a handful that might consider dropping out in a good suburban school and having friends around to help keep you there.

I did see that they are accounting for students coming in and leaving. If they were doing that effectively, there would not be more than 10% in the unaccounted for bucket. That is not a shot at the schools, it is a statement that shows a gap in what they say they are doing and reality. It appears they are more than likely assuming the unknowns are being moved into the group that did not graduate.

As far as your link on the Henry scores, this adds to my original point that some students are in need of more time to graduate if they are not passing tests, but making progress.

The 45% grad rate at the district is not good, but it is important to see that this really is 45% of students graduating in 4 years. If you look at how many graduate in 4 or more years, the number is different. If it is significantly higher than 45%, this would say to me the measurement you favor is not showing the entire picture.

One thing I do agree with you on is that the big issue for many of these schools is that students are not engaged to full potential.

The real questions with regards to the schools is: Do they have resources they need to effectively teach and are they doing that?

[uptown_urbanist]

Golfgal, have you ever spent any time in a city school, or have your children ever attended one?

For most kids who drop out their situation isn't going to magically change just because they go to school in the suburbs. And you haven't (in other posts) argued that suburban schools are better for those kids with families who don't care (or who are facing other such problems) - you've argued that almost all students at public city schools, regardless of their family's involvement, will somehow be drawn down by rubbing shoulders with a kid who is less lucky.

The fact is that it is possible to get a good education in a city school. Not every kid is succeeding, but a suburban school isn't a magic bullet, either. These are larger social issues, and a simple change in scenery is not going to fix things.

Frankly, I would never send my child to most of the suburban schools around here, for many, many reasons. I haven't made it a mission to convince others that their children will be negatively impacted if they choose to do so, though.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by golfgal

School Report Card : Academic Excellence : Minnesota Department of Education

This is the proficiency scores from Henry-these kids are graduating???

Yeah, if I were a parent, I'd let No Child Left Behind measurements (generally regarded as a horrible archaic a**-backwards program) be the judge, jury, and executioner in which school I choose to have my kid attend- and those results are highly questionable in how small the sample of students for Henry is, and the fact that the percentages don't add up to equal 100%. But, assuming that the Reading Proficiency results that you linked to are actually reliable, it's showing a 58% proficiency at Henry with an 88% AYP graduation rate- this is at a school that has the following student populations: 16% Limited English, 12% Special Ed, and 74% free and reduced lunch. Here's how District 196 high schools (the supposed- and these are very big quotes- "best" schools) compare in the exact same categories taken from the same website:

Apple Valley Senior High
Reading proficiency: 74%
AYP Graduation: 98%
Limited English: 5%
Special Ed: 13%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 15%

Eagan Senior High
Reading proficiency: 81%
AYP Graduation: 98%
Limited English: 1%
Special Ed: 10%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 7%

Eastview Senior High
Reading proficiency: 82%
AYP Graduation: 99%
Limited English: 2%
Special Ed: 12%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 7%

Rosemount Senior High
Reading proficiency: 73%
AYP Graduation: 97%
Limited English: 1%
Special Ed: 14%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 11%

So, you posed the question "these students are graduating?" in response to a 30% disparity between Reading Proficiency and graduation rates at Henry, yet at Rosemount Senior High there's a 25% disparity in this same category?

Also, if we are to assume that Limited English, Special Ed, and Free & Reduced Lunch student body percentages can be viewed as potential indicators of barriers to academic success faced by a student population (not to even delve into cultural bias on standardized testing), then it's interesting to note that if you add up all of these percentages in all District 196 schools, it still is less than the number you get after adding up all of Henry's percentages. And if you were to just add up the percentages of free & reduced lunch in all 196 high schools, it is still 34 percentage points lower than the percentage of Henry's student body that receives free and reduced lunches.

So, on that note Golfgal- considering the average 22.5% lack of reading prociency at District 196 high schools combined with the low averages of 12.25% special ed, 2.25% limited English, and 10% free & reduced lunches- what's District 196's excuse in comparison to schools like Henry that are having much more success with these student populations?

And your theory about the supposed lack of family values in regards to education and/or lack of student motivation at urban public schools just pervasively rubbing off on the average student is completely bogus- this is like saying that people shouldn't move to Rosemount or attend Rosemount Senior High because (1) it has the lowest AYP Reading Proficiency rate and graduation rate in District 196, and (2) the higher rate of special ed students there is going to make the average person's kid more likely to become special ed because he'll have more special ed friends.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

Yeah, if I were a parent, I'd let No Child Left Behind measurements (generally regarded as a horrible archaic a**-backwards program) be the judge, jury, and executioner in which school I choose to have my kid attend- and those results are highly questionable in how small the sample of students for Henry is, and the fact that the percentages don't add up to equal 100%. But, assuming that the Reading Proficiency results that you linked to are actually reliable, it's showing a 58% proficiency at Henry with an 88% AYP graduation rate- this is at a school that has the following student populations: 16% Limited English, 12% Special Ed, and 74% free and reduced lunch. Here's how District 196 high schools (the supposed- and these are very big quotes- "best" schools) compare in the exact same categories taken from the same website:

Apple Valley Senior High
Reading proficiency: 74%
AYP Graduation: 98%
Limited English: 5%
Special Ed: 13%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 15%

Eagan Senior High
Reading proficiency: 81%
AYP Graduation: 98%
Limited English: 1%
Special Ed: 10%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 7%

Eastview Senior High
Reading proficiency: 82%
AYP Graduation: 99%
Limited English: 2%
Special Ed: 12%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 7%

Rosemount Senior High
Reading proficiency: 73%
AYP Graduation: 97%
Limited English: 1%
Special Ed: 14%
Free & Reduced Lunch: 11%

So, you posed the question "these students are graduating?" in response to a 30% disparity between Reading Proficiency and graduation rates at Henry, yet at Rosemount Senior High there's a 25% disparity in this same category?

Also, if we are to assume that Limited English, Special Ed, and Free & Reduced Lunch student body percentages can be viewed as potential indicators of barriers to academic success faced by a student population (not to even delve into cultural bias on standardized testing), then it's interesting to note that if you add up all of these percentages in all District 196 schools, it still is less than the number you get after adding up all of Henry's percentages. And if you were to just add up the percentages of free & reduced lunch in all 196 high schools, it is still 34 percentage points lower than the percentage of Henry's student body that receives free and reduced lunches.

So, on that note Golfgal- considering the average 22.5% lack of reading prociency at District 196 high schools combined with the low averages of 12.25% special ed, 2.25% limited English, and 10% free & reduced lunches- what's District 196's excuse in comparison to schools like Henry that are having much more success with these student populations?

And your theory about the supposed lack of family values in regards to education and/or lack of student motivation at urban public schools just pervasively rubbing off on the average student is completely bogus- this is like saying that people shouldn't move to Rosemount or attend Rosemount Senior High because (1) it has the lowest AYP Reading Proficiency rate and graduation rate in District 196, and (2) the higher rate of special ed students there is going to make the average person's kid more likely to become special ed because he'll have more special ed friends.

Have YOU ever spent time in schools, teaching kids, seeing what effect those around them have on their education? Do you currently have kids in the Minneapolis schools? It is not bogus and it is a very prevalent issue in all schools. Peer pressure, especially at the high school level is very powerful. You see it everywhere, the cheerleader that likes the football player that dumbs herself down so she doesn't appear to be too smart and in the same vein the marginal student that hangs around kids that don't care about doing well is going to be influenced by his/her peer group. Go spend some time talking to some teachers in the Minneapolis schools and they will tell you the same thing-if they could just get the families to care about school and getting a good education things will turn around very quickly. Ask them how many parents show up for conferences at the middle and high school level. Ask them how many parents return phone calls about their child. Ask them how many of their kids even had breakfast that morning. Until you solve these problems the schools will NEVER get to where they need to be.

This happens at the suburban schools too, just not on the same scale. Ask any teacher what their biggest frustration is with their underperforming students and the answer will be the lack of caring from the kid and his/her parents.

Yes, I have spent time in the city schools, no, my children have not attended the schools by I have siblings and relatives that have. I have witnessed what goes on in the schools in my many, many visits to my aunt's elementary classroom in St. Paul.

I am glad that you are a proponent of the Minneapolis schools. I am glad that you think all is well and good there, however, test scores, drop out rates, graduation rates prove otherwise. Also, have you spent any time in the suburban schools, have you seen the difference in the schools, the attitude of the kids, etc. Your negative attitude toward the suburban schools is no different then my attitude toward the Minneapolis schools. I agree that NCLB is NOT a good model and has hurt schools more then it will ever help them but for now, it is the only comparison we have.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Have YOU ever spent time in schools, teaching kids, seeing what effect those around them have on their education? Do you currently have kids in the Minneapolis schools? ....Go spend some time talking to some teachers in the Minneapolis schools and they will tell you the same thing-if they could just get the families to care about school and getting a good education things will turn around very quickly.

To answer your question about my own personal knowledge of, experience, and/or interaction with teachers/education systems- I am the grandson of a lifelong public school teacher; the son of two lifelong public school teachers that have taught in rural, suburban, and urban environments in several states (now in MN); my brother's a public school teacher/ coach here in MN; my sister's a professor; and my BIL is a science education researcher. The majority of our friends are teachers here in the Metro area for primarily public schools and some charters (in both suburban and urban schools). I myself attended low-income urban schools, assisted both my parents in their classrooms growing up, as well as worked as a music educator, teaching assistant, EBD classroom aide, and after-school program aide for at-risk students as a young adult. The respective agencies my wife and I currently work for both operate youth employment/training programs for Minneapolis youth (and there are multiple after school/ educational programs for low-income youth in the building I work in), and, as community members, we support Henry by attending sporting events, plays, concerts, art shows, IB events, and fundraisers; and have similarly supported Loring in fundraisers, community potlucks/ garden harvests, and other events regularly.

[uptown_urbanist]

Yeah, I have a lot of personal experience. I graduated 12 years ago from a Minneapolis public school (and have younger siblings who graduated more recently), am the child of a long-time MPS employee (an educational assistant), worked for several years for MPS during college, volunteered as a tutor in both suburban and city public schools, am friends with teachers and educators, and have chosen a nonprofit career in a related field because I feel that all people, regardless of background and circumstances, deserve a shot at a good education. I also contribute financially when I can to the public schools and support them in other ways when possible. My son will be attending MPS as soon as he is old enough.

No one is saying that schools - regardless of location - are serving the needs of all students, or that there are no problems. Your references to football players and cheerleaders, however, is straight out of the movies - it certainly didn't match the reality of my experience, or from the sounds of it, current students, either. That's simply not how it works (especially if we're talking football and cheerleaders! At my school, at least, neither activity got much attention outside of homecoming). Now if my kid were at a school and running with the wrong crowd - equally possible in the suburban schools, too, although the exact issues may vary - I might want a change of scenery, but my kid isn't going to be "dumbed down" by sitting near someone who will drop out a year later. If anything maybe he will learn that there are problems in this world, and that we as a society need to work harder to fix them.

Peer groups do matter. There are uninterested kids in the suburbs, too, as well as other problems like drug abuse, excessive drinking, etc. But a kid with parents who care is going to be equally likely to care about education if they go to a suburban school or a city school. Peers matter, but parents do, too, and if nothing else these studies should also show that there are also many, many students in the public schools who DO care - it's very cynical to think that the negative influences are always going to win out over the positive experiences. It's also worth pointing out that the city schools, at least at the high school level, do have some tracking place - you can argue if this is a good or a bad thing, but if a student selects to take an IB or an AP class, for example, (they're not mandatory) then he or she is automatically going to be surrounded by other students who have also made that choice to embrace education.

If you compare the children of parents who care in a suburban district versus a city district you will find no difference in the students' academic success.

I also think that there's a world of difference between those who point out that the children of parents who choose to live in the city have an equal shot at a high-quality education as those who attend a suburban school district, and those who actively steer parents in only one direction, and suggest to potentail transplants that they'll have to choose a suburban school district (and certain ones, at that) if they want their child to have a decent education. The pro-city school posters are primarily pointing out that in the Twin Cities parents have real and legitimate CHOICE, and it's not a choice between "good" and "bad."

I personally don't like the suburban schools because I think that it's important for my child to be exposed to the broader realities of life. I won't send him to a public school at the expense of a good education, but given that he can get both a top-notch education AND have exposure to the broad diversity of life (as well as see the inequalities found in modern society) I would never choose the infantalizing setting of a huge suburban school sitting in an office park-like setting somewhere. I respect the rights of other parents to make the choice for themselves, though, (although rarely outright state that it's unnecessarily provacative and unhelpful) but do think it's only fair to want any newcomers to realize that they can sleep easy making their housing choice knowing that their child can get a solid academic education wherever they choose.

[Slig]

I'm trying to put this in a nutshell, basically what we've determined in this discussion is that Golfgal's argument as to why the city schools are worse than suburb schools is based on stereotypes and misleading statistics.

[Ben Around]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Until you solve these problems the schools will NEVER get to where they need to be.

Your statement gave me some insight as to why I usually disgree with your posts about schools and education. IMO, it's not about getting the SCHOOLS where they need to be, it's about getting each individual kid where he/she needs to be. I don't meant to sound sanctimonious about it, but really, sometimes it seems forgotten that the schools exist to educate the kids. Test scores and rankings can be useful tools for administrators to gauge what resources a school may be needing, but of marginal value for a parent to evaluate a school for their child.