Apparently Eagan isn't so safe.. (Minneapolis, St. Paul: homes, neighborhoods, buying)

[Slig]

The cruising/football game comment was just based on one example that I remember feeling on Friday nights back in High School circa 1997. I'm aware that there are things like a couple bowling alleys in the area, (one on HWY 10 next to a Ramsey Icon, the XXX book store), a crappy movie theater in Andover and a few scattered parks that have areas that are converted to ice rinks in the winter. If I really wanted to stretch my imagination I could find forms of entertainment in a 5 or 10 mile radius of where I lived in my middle school/high school years. You did get my point that the things there are to do pales in comparison to what there is to do in the city. Your kid likes band, great. Not all kids like band. I was in it for one year in 5th grade and it wasn't my deal. I played guitar and bass instead which yes, does pass time, but no, doesn't cause the area to be any less boring. Also, not all kids want to be involved, especially kids like me who didn't like high school. It doesn't mean I'm going to grow up to be a screw-up though. I graduated with honors, graduated undergrad from a MIAC school and now am in a graduate program at the U of M and balancing it with a full-time job. I'm aware you're saying average, but really you're sidestepping the question of things to do in an area and shifting it to a conversation about extra-curricular activities offered by area schools. These are two seperate conversations as far as I'm concerned.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Slig

The cruising/football game comment was just based on one example that I remember feeling on Friday nights back in High School circa 1997. I'm aware that there are things like a couple bowling alleys in the area, (one on HWY 10 next to a Ramsey Icon, the XXX book store), a crappy movie theater in Andover and a few scattered parks that have areas that are converted to ice rinks in the winter. If I really wanted to stretch my imagination I could find forms of entertainment in a 5 or 10 mile radius of where I lived in my middle school/high school years. You did get my point that the things there are to do pales in comparison to what there is to do in the city. Your kid likes band, great. Not all kids like band. I was in it for one year in 5th grade and it wasn't my deal. I played guitar and bass instead which yes, does pass time, but no, doesn't cause the area to be any less boring. Also, not all kids want to be involved, especially kids like me who didn't like high school. It doesn't mean I'm going to grow up to be a screw-up though. I graduated with honors, graduated undergrad from a MIAC school and now am in a graduate program at the U of M and balancing it with a full-time job. I'm aware you're saying average, but really you're sidestepping the question of things to do in an area and shifting it to a conversation about extra-curricular activities offered by area schools. These are two seperate conversations as far as I'm concerned.

I hear what you are saying. But allow me to clarify my point. People were suggesting that Kid's are bored in the Burbs. I suppose so. I don't know the numbers. Same thing with Kid's in Minneapolis. Just because there are more physical things to do doesn't mean people will be entertained. I'm sure there are plenty of bored Kid's in MPLS.

Even now you suggesting that Andover (as an example) has a crappy theater etc. It's newer and it is typical so we disagree. For the record there is also laser tag, mini golf, tennis courts, multiple golf courses, go carts, wave pools, health clubs with rec leagues etc. I'm just scratching the surface.

I'm guessing that your less than ideal high school experience is related to your desire not to be involved in school and therefore you are misplacing the blame on the area. That's just a guess. Or maybe your parents didn't push you to be involved. The fact that I carted around my daughter to all kinds of softball games and camps (as an example) might be the reason she is still playing in about 5 games this weekend. Now it is her choice to go to the games, not mine. She loves the sport and now she is pretty good at it.

So if my Kid didn't like high school, I'd be very concerned as a parent and figure a way to get them involved with some thing that they liked to do. I also don't underestimate the importance of parenting in whether a Kid is bored. Since I know a whole lot of Kid's that are not bored (and stay and raise their family in the area) this is enough proof for me that your specific experience isn't due to "boring Anoka County".

Additionally, school activities are a way to keep Kid's in MPLS (as well as Coon Rapids) out of mischief. So the point is still relevant to this conversation.

[Slig]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I'm guessing that your less than ideal high school experience is related to your desire not to be involved in school and therefore you are misplacing the blame on the area. That's just a guess. Or maybe your parents didn't push you to be involved.

It could be possible to a certain extent as far as high school experience. Parents not pushing me is completely false.

So if my Kid didn't like high school, I'd be very concerned as a parent and figure a way to get them involved with some things that they liked to do. I also don't underestimate the importance of parenting in whether a Kid is bored. Since I know a whole lot of Kid's that are not bored (and stay and raise their family in the area) is enough proof for me that your specific experience isn't due to "boring Anoka County".

I'm glad you place importance on your kids, and it deserves props that you're able to successfully accomplish this in boring Anoka County. I can assure you I won't be submitting myself to the same challenge when I have my own kids.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Slig

I'm glad you place importance on your kids, and it deserves props that you're able to successfully accomplish this in boring Anoka County. I can assure you I won't be submitting myself to the same challenge when I have my own kids.

I'm convinced that I would have to exert the same magnitude of effort in MPLS or St. Paul to make sure my Kid's were involved and not bored. It's called being an involved parent from beginning to end and it is work to do it right. I'd say MPLS is more advantageous at keeping adults entertained than Kid's. When my Kid's have moved, I might want to get a condo in the Cities. My focus for them was to be involved in school and hang with the kids / parents with the same goals.

What activities makes it a less boring in MPLS for Kid's??? I'm curious.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I don't think the city is perfect, either. I also know that a lot of kids in the suburbs keep very busy. I guess where my complaint about some of the suburbs is that the schools or other centers of activities are often physically separated from the houses, and the kids either have to have someone drive them there, or they get a car as soon as they're old enough to drive. In the city teens are more likely to be able to get to and from places by either walking or taking the bus - not that they also don't get rides or get cars, but I think it's healthy to have options. In the city - or in some neighborhoods of the city - things are more integrated, with parks, coffee houses, movie theaters, restaurants, libraries, etc. - all in the same place, and all within walking distance of home (without having to cross big pedestrian-unfriendly streets).

There's another big trend lately for parents to be afraid to give their kids freedoms; I've been amazed to read some of the posts on the parenting forum and elsewhere where people mention not allowing ven their teenage kids to walk around the mall on their own. People are afraid to let their kids play outside or walk to the park because they might be kidnapped. That's not necessarily a suburban versus city thing, but I did read something recently where the anthropologist author looked at the residents of some of these sorts of suburbs and found that residents were often fearful of perceived dangers to a degree disproportionate to the actual crime rate. (not a teen-specific thing, but it does seem a shame to move to a cul-de-sac somewhere and then still be too nervous to let your children play outside - sometimes even in the backyard - without adult supervision.)

I agree that kids or teens in all environments can be bored, but do think that designing communities that are highly segregated by property use (whether in city, small town, or suburbs) doesn't improve things.

I agree. You do need a car or someone to drive you to do things in our area. Thankfully my wife works out of the home so she was able to cart around our Kid's. Without this help, I could easily see how Kids could get bored. It would be nice if they could bike, bus, or walk to get to all of the things to do in our area. (Slig, if that was your point then we agree.)

I also agree that there are a lot of paranoid parents (including my wife). I continue to explain to her that I don't personally know anybody who has been abducted or kidnapped so yea, its o.k. to bike at night or play at the park alone. Additionally, I don't know any Kid with a head injury from riding a bike without a helmet. It's also o.k. to ride in the back seat of a car without being strapped in for a trip. This paranoia extends to worrying about being sued (I don't personally know anybody who was sued), worried about getting hurt from all kinds of activities, worrying about being burglarized in safe areas etc. As a society, we have become paranoid people.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Slig

I like how parents defend their suburbs by speaking on behalf of their kids. I'd like to see some posts from kids living in the suburbs saying if they feel like the place they live leaves anything to be desired as far as there being enough things to do in close proximity. My parents probably would've said the same thing about me and it couldn't have been more untrue. Having been a resident of both environments I am just speaking about my own personal experiences, the difference for me is night and day.

Kids will say they are bored no matter where they live. There are plenty of Minneapolis kids that will tell you the same thing "there is nothing to do...". They are kids, that is what they say. You were never a teenager living in Minneapolis nor do you have kids that are teenagers that live in Minneapolis so you can't speak from your own experience that there is more to do in Minneapolis.

Oh, and your walkability stats are garbage. I did that site for our house and according to that there are no shops in Rosemount and we are miles away from everything yet, silly me, can get to the coffee shop in just a short walk and the school is a mile away. Also, in Eagan, just like in Minneapolis, there are neighborhoods that are within 100 feet of a bus stop and there are neighborhoods that are not. There are neighborhoods that are within a couple blocks of the schools and there are neighborhoods that are not. It is nice that your neighborhood is so close, but you won't find that in every neighborhood, city or suburban.

[Slig]

Originally Posted by golfgal

You were never a teenager living in Minneapolis nor do you have kids that are teenagers that live in Minneapolis so you can't speak from your own experience that there is more to do in Minneapolis.

No, but I know alot of people who did and we've discussed it alot. None of them seem to have had the same problems I had in regards to getting around and finding things to see and do on a daily basis.

Oh, and your walkability stats are garbage. I did that site for our house and according to that there are no shops in Rosemount and we are miles away from everything yet, silly me, can get to the coffee shop in just a short walk and the school is a mile away.

I agree with you that there are some things missing and it isn't 100% accurate. However, overall I think it gives a person a pretty good idea about what is around and how walkable an area is. Just because one coffee shop was missing from it is not reason to write off the entire website as garbage. What are you saying, that those suburban locations I mentioned are as walkable as South Minneapolis? If you are, I'd like to hear a good explanation as to why you think this. I'm pretty sure you're just trying desperately to try and find a tiny fault in every one of my points even though you can't deny that the overall statement in 90+% of cases is accurate.

Also, in Eagan, just like in Minneapolis, there are neighborhoods that are within 100 feet of a bus stop and there are neighborhoods that are not. There are neighborhoods that are within a couple blocks of the schools and there are neighborhoods that are not. It is nice that your neighborhood is so close, but you won't find that in every neighborhood, city or suburban.

Once again, if you try really hard you can find exceptions but Minneapolis neighborhoods over 90% of the time will be more walkable than any given suburban location. I think we both can agree with that statement.

[uptown_urbanist]

I just typed in a sample Rosemount walkability address to see if for some reason there was some flaw with Rosemount - it showed plenty of stores and restaurants. The walkability score was still 26, but it wasn't like there was just nothing showing up. They get their information from Google Maps, and there's even an icon on the site where you can add missing places and have it show up in the scores within minutes. I've done the scores for all of my addresses, and always had it fairly accurate. A couple of missing stores or services shouldn't drastically alter the overall ballpark figure.

As for buses, keep in mind that it's not just proximity of bus stops - it's also what routes stop at those stops, where they go, and how often they run. Not as many people take the bus in many suburbs, so demand is lower, the buses don't run as often (yeah, I know, kind of a chicken-and-the-egg issue), and the buses are more likely to serve the needs of adult commuters than teenagers moving around on their own.

I think everyone should want their neighborhoods to be more walkable (wherever they live), even if they themselves never walk.

[golfgal]

I just put in an address in Rosemount and came up with a walkability of 78 which is why you can't say that "suburbs aren't walkable and the city is". I put in my SIL's address in Highland Park, 52, put in a nice neighborhood where a friend lives in NE MLPS, got 74, put in another address about 6 blocks away and got a 68. So, what is more walkable?

[MNdude]

Some important things to note about walkscore.com rankings:

How It Doesn't Work: Known Issues with Walk Score

We'll be the first to admit that Walk Score is just an approximation of walkability. There are a number of factors that contribute to walkability that are not part of our algorithm:

• Public transit: Good public transit is important for walkable neighborhoods.
• Street width and block length: Narrow streets slow down traffic. Short blocks provide more routes to the same destination and make it easier to take a direct route.
• Street design: Sidewalks and safe crossings are essential to walkability. Appropriate automobile speeds, trees, and other features also help.
• Safety from crime and crashes: How much crime is in the neighborhood? How many traffic accidents are there? Are streets well-lit?
• Pedestrian-friendly community design: Are buildings close to the sidewalk with parking in back? Are destinations clustered together?
• Topography: Hills can make walking difficult, especially if you're carrying groceries.
• Freeways and bodies of water: Freeways can divide neighborhoods. Swimming is harder than walking.
• Weather: In some places it's just too hot or cold to walk regularly.