Apparently Eagan isn't so safe.. (house, neighborhood, high school)

[uptown_urbanist]

Yes, of course I've walked on those streets. They are busy, but there are also lots of pedestrian traffic, and I'm not one of the few people out walking. That's not to say that there isn't room for improvement, but there are significant differences between those streets and somewhere like Pilot Knob. Even in areas like around around Southtown, Southdale, etc. (ever tried walking from Southdale to the Galleria to the Target?), it can be scary to cross some of those streets - people are not looking for pedestrians, often stoplights are spaced oddly (for walkers, that is), sidewalks have a habit of doing weird things, and snow removal leaves much to be desired. It's not just a matter of how many cars come down a street, it's also an issue of what it's like for a person walking on those streets.

There are some pedestrian-unfriendly streets in the city, too, but in general it's friendlier to walkers than in the suburbs (depends on where in the suburbs, of course). I don't understand exactly what you're arguing - is it that suburbs and cities are equally walkable? I've already acknowledged that there are a variety of suburbs, and that some city streets could use some work (I don't like the stretch of Lagoon going through Uptown, or the part of Lake heading towards Excelsior and SLP by Lake Calhoun). But you can't tell how walkable a street is until you actually get out and walk it, ideally at multiple times a year.

[Clifford63]

I also fee like it is a matter of personal choices. What matters the most is the answer to one simple question. Do you enjoy living where you currently live? If you do, then you probably care enough to support that community and improvements. I believe one of the overall goals of the walk score concept is to encourage improvement.

Congestion is one of the things that drives people to support changes that make it easier to walk, bike and use public transportation. The more urban parts of the metro have fairly high density and using a car all the time can be a hassle. I think it is great to see more people biking and walking and trying to make changes so it is easier and safer for people who want to use car alternatives. Suburbs are not oblivious to this concept by any means. It is certianly not hard to find information about what cities are doing in terms of improvements, but it is certianly going to have a lower profile and sometimes a more limited scope.

Some areas of the suburbs are pretty good in terms of walkabilty, but it is hard to deny that lack of density makes it harder to encourage investment in things that make it more walkable, as well as more expensive.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by MNdude

I used to live two blocks south of Ford Pkwy/Cleveland ave and while there was a lot of traffic I found it to be very pedestrian friendly and I never once feared for my safety. The sense of safety is helped by the fact that the main intercession of Ford/Cleveland has no right turn on red signs. Also while these areas and Uptown has a lot of traffic there is one key difference between that and lets say Pilot Knobb Rd just north of Farmingtown. The traffic in Uptown and Ford/Cleveland moves at a significantly slower pace, Uptown is reminiscent of a parking lot at some times during the day. While it sucks for drivers, it is way more pedestrian friendly to have more cars near by going 5-10 mph vs cars going 40-45 mph on Pilot Knobb Rd.

I personally would not fear for my safety because of traffic in that area. But I would not want a 10 year old walking around that busy area. I also would not want my Kid breathing in exhaust fumes day in and day out. That is one of the many reasons why I prefer the Burbs. I also prefer to hear the birds chirping versus hearing cars zooming by.

If you want walkability as defined by some, it comes with its set of trade-offs. If you want 2 wooded acres and see some wild turkeys nesting in your back yard like I did this morning, that also means it will take you 10 minutes by car to get a stick'en breakfast sandwich at a fast food chain.

[uptown_urbanist]

I agree that it's a matter of personal choice. I personally prefer a lot of things within easy walking distance, but realize that not everyone wants that. But pretending that some of these big major streets are just fine and perfect doesn't do any good; major expensive improvements are not likely to happen in most places. But small changes can make a difference, and can make it safer and more pleasant for those people who do choose to walk, even in less walkable areas, to be safe and exercise that option.

While living in LA I participated in an event where a group of volunteers divided into groups, walked the streets, and made detailed notes about things impacting the pedestrian experience. Some of these streets were in very urban areas (I'm thinking stretches of Sunset in Hollywood, for those of you who know the area) yet were fairly unpleasant, not-very-walkable kind of places. The walk was sponsored by the local city councilman, and the goal was to help the city implement small (and potentially big) changes to improve the community. That sort of thing can be done in suburbs and cities (and is in fact done in both) and is a great example of how you can still appreciate your neighborhood or community while still acknowledging some of the problems. Not everyone needs to be able to walk to a hundred different stores, but it is nice to be able to at least have the option of safely walking the major streets in your neighborhood.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

That sort of thing can be done in suburbs and cities (and is in fact done in both) and is a great example of how you can still appreciate your neighborhood or community while still acknowledging some of the problems. Not everyone needs to be able to walk to a hundred different stores, but it is nice to be able to at least have the option of safely walking the major streets in your neighborhood.

Agreed- our neighborhood assn received a grant to develop a plan (and is now trying to find funding to implement it) to improve the walkability of the 44th Ave N/ Penn/ Osseo Road business node area. It has the largest concentration of businesses in the neighborhood- home to Victory 44, Steamworks Coffee, Emily's Cafe, Workhouse Theatre, and a number of service-related businesses, but the intersection is a pedestrian nightmare- one of those things where streets running in multiple (5) directions collide at one intersection and the mess of stoplights/lack of cross-walks make it hard to know both when and where to cross. The plan is to close off one residential street from coming upon the intersection, repave/ curb/ gutter the entire intersection, re-work the stoplights and cross-walks, add in bike paths, and create green spaces (trees, shrubbery) between the sidewalk and street areas. I think most people aware of the plan in the n'hood are very much aware of the potential impact it could have- the area would not only look but feel a lot more pleasant to both neighborhood residents, persons passing through, and ideally potential business owners as well.

But the impression I get is that our local politicians either lack the foresight or ability to work together to go about locating/ allocating funds towards a project like this which is bothersome to me- I often get the impression that it's too difficult for them to figure out whether a street is the responsibility of the city, park board, county, or state in order to even start working towards implementation of something like this. But, in the case of this intersection- here we have a neighborhood on the northside that has all the makings of a great little (walkable) neighborhood business corridor that could be utilized by residents of surrounding neighborhoods (Victory, Cleveland, Webber-Camden, greater Camden), suburbs (Robbinsdale, Brooklyn Center), and other Minneapolis neighborhoods (it's no secret that there's a dirth of sit-down restaurants on the Northside), so, in addition to directing a lot of resources towards West Broadway- why not invest in business nodes throughout the Northside, esp. those that have already been enjoying some success as local neighborhood (and surrounding areas) destinations? -It's good for the area as a whole. Anyways, enough of my off-topic ranting-

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by MNdude

I used to live two blocks south of Ford Pkwy/Cleveland ave and while there was a lot of traffic I found it to be very pedestrian friendly and I never once feared for my safety. The sense of safety is helped by the fact that the main intercession of Ford/Cleveland has no right turn on red signs. Also while these areas and Uptown has a lot of traffic there is one key difference between that and lets say Pilot Knobb Rd just north of Farmingtown. The traffic in Uptown and Ford/Cleveland moves at a significantly slower pace, Uptown is reminiscent of a parking lot at some times during the day. While it sucks for drivers, it is way more pedestrian friendly to have more cars near by going 5-10 mph vs cars going 40-45 mph on Pilot Knobb Rd.

Pilot Knob just north of Farmington is NOT a residential area and it isn't meant to be walkable--even though there are bike paths along Pilot Knob and the area gets a lot of use from bikers, runners and people walking their dogs. There is quite a large boulevard between the bike path and the road. It is perfectly safe to walk along there. You are comparing apples to tennis shoes. If you want to compare Pilot Knob then take a comparable street, say Stinson/New Brighton Blvd in Minneapolis. Same type of development, same traffic patterns, Target and surrounding stores about the same and the traffic is heavier along Stinson and faster.

Compare Ford Parkway/Cleveland to downtown Rosemount as it is a similar use area and Rosemount has considerably less traffic and is a much safer area in which to walk.

[uptown_urbanist]

I will admit that certain roads shouldn't have pedestrians - i.e. freeways - but (and I may be misinterpreting your statement here) are you saying that commercial districts without homes, or not within walking distance (whatever we define that as) of homes, don't need to be, shouldn't be, or aren't meant to be, walkable?

From the point of view of a pedestrian, while volume of traffic can matter, it's not the most important factor - much more significant is the safety of the crossings (are there people turning at top speeds while you're trying to cross the street, are drivers likely to be thinking about pedestrians, are the sidewalks obstructed in any way, etc.)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I will admit that certain roads shouldn't have pedestrians - i.e. freeways - but (and I may be misinterpreting your statement here) are you saying that commercial districts without homes, or not within walking distance (whatever we define that as) of homes, don't need to be, shouldn't be, or aren't meant to be, walkable?

From the point of view of a pedestrian, while volume of traffic can matter, it's not the most important factor - much more significant is the safety of the crossings (are there people turning at top speeds while you're trying to cross the street, are drivers likely to be thinking about pedestrians, are the sidewalks obstructed in any way, etc.)

The specific area that the poster mentioned about Pilot Knob has nothing there. If you go from Farmington north there is a cemetary, watertower, a transit station for the bus (oh wait, suburbs don't have bus access )about 1/2 mile down the road a Target and small shopping area--which on the east side is completely accessible by sidewalks along roads that are 30 mph. If you go another mile north on Pilot Knob you do get into some townhome developments and more residential areas but then the speed limit lowers as well.

As for crossing the roads there are stop lights with crosswalks. The sidewalks are not obstructed in any way. Visibility leading up to all the intersections is very good. The area was a gravel pit so there aren't any trees to block your view. Also, there is no parking along the street so there are no cars to block the view of any ped's walking. It is completely safe area in which to walk and like I said earlier has a lot of walkers, runners and bikers using the trails along there.

[Slig]

Originally Posted by golfgal

The specific area that the poster mentioned about Pilot Knob has nothing there. If you go from Farmington north there is a cemetary, watertower, a transit station for the bus (oh wait, suburbs don't have bus access )about 1/2 mile down the road a Target and small shopping area--which on the east side is completely accessible by sidewalks along roads that are 30 mph. If you go another mile north on Pilot Knob you do get into some townhome developments and more residential areas but then the speed limit lowers as well.

As for crossing the roads there are stop lights with crosswalks. The sidewalks are not obstructed in any way. Visibility leading up to all the intersections is very good. The area was a gravel pit so there aren't any trees to block your view. Also, there is no parking along the street so there are no cars to block the view of any ped's walking. It is completely safe area in which to walk and like I said earlier has a lot of walkers, runners and bikers using the trails along there.

From my experiences there you can walk all you want in Eagan but you won't get anywhere. Where I lived there was a gas station and dying strip mall several blocks away but other than that I'd have to walk at least a mile and a half to get to any commercial establishment. Walking down sidewalks on Diffley Ave, Pilot Knob, Yankee Doodle, Lexington Ave, Cliff Rd have sidewalks but I wouldn't consider them very pedestrian friendly since traffic is moving so fast and there is no protection between the sidewalk and the road, plus I've had numerous experiences where I was hit or nearly hit because lots of drivers aren't looking out for pedestrians and bikers. At least roads like Hiawatha have some space between the two and tree cover. Plus there is alot more people around so drivers are forced to be more aware of them.

[mnduck]

Sorry to jump in as a lurker here. I think the fundamental point of disagreement is how one defines 'walkability'. People are out walking, biking, etc. in more suburban environments all the time- that's no question. The fact is, though, that most of them aren't going anywhere in particular- they are walking for leisure. In more urban environments, while people are still walking for leisure, they are far more likely to be walking as a form of transportation; actually going somewhere (to the store, bus stop, etc.).

I'll give an example. I live in a suburb between 0.25 and 0.5 mi from a major commercial node, with coffee shops, restaurants, grocery store, etc. As such, my 'walk score' is higher than even some city neighborhoods in Mpls and St. Paul. And yeah, I walk to the grocery store when it is nice out, only takes 10 minutes or so. But does this mean my neighborhood is 'walkable'? I guess, but when I walk to the grocery store I am likely the only one on the sidewalks actually doing so (as the others are out for leisure), and I have to cross a major road (one that is not really built to accommodate pedestrians) to do so. I live close to these places, but the infrastructure is not built to accomodate me as a walker, as it is built to accommodate cars- which is what most people use to get around in this area.

This is not to say that dense, pedestrian-friendly areas where people might be walking *to* things cannot be found in the suburbs- historic downtowns of outer-ring suburbs that were once small towns, like Chaska, come to mind- but the fact is that 'walkability' can mean very different things in different places.