Information on Outlying Suburbs (Minneapolis, St. Paul: rentals, houses, neighborhood)

[Minnehahapolitan]

Originally Posted by PhDCandidate

I am doing a little preliminary digging regarding a potential move that my wife and I will be making once I figure out where I will be going to graduate school at. As it stands now, we have about five real options (Denver; Iowa City, Iowa; Seattle; Lexington, Kentucky; Minneapolis, MN) and I'm trying to find out about each of them. University of Minnesota is one of the schools I am really excited about and I'm definitely interested in the area.

Currently, we live in Indianapolis, are newly married (two months and counting) and are both relatively young (she's 23 and I'll be 29 in a couple of months). I am trying to find something that is within decent commuting distance of Minneapolis (45 minutes to an hour), but I don't want to live in the city or immediate suburbs that have become run down over recent years which I hear is a big problem.

Based upon the digging I've done and the limited time I've spent out in the area, I put together a working list of places to look into which includes the following (in no particular order).
-Rogers, MN
-Corcoran, MN
-Waconia, MN
-Shorewood, MN
-Minnetonka, MN
-Lakeville, MN
-Eagan, MN (not sure if this is a good area or not...I've heard conflicting opinions)
-Mahtomedi, MN
-Stillwater, MN
-Cottage Grove, MN
-Hastings, MN
-Apple Valley, MN

We are looking mostly for rental homes, although if we can find a nice apartment, condo or townhome to rent, that is fine as well. It does not have to be a formal rental community or anything like that as we are open to whatever our options might be. I grew up in a very small town (150-250 people roughly depending on whether you count the people who lived just outside of town, etc) so living in a rural area does not bother me. Actually I prefer it in many ways. We also previously lived in Michigan so bitterly cold winters and lots of snow are things we (my wife more so than myself since she grew up there and I grew up here in Indiana) are accustomed to.

We would like to be in a somewhat upper middle class area with low crime and a homogeneous cultural background (no racial tension, no militant minorities which are both problems in the neighborhood next to the one we currently live in). Diversity is not something we feel is absolutely necessary in a community but it's not a bad thing either so long as everyone is respectful and no one is pushing for special treatment regardless of who they are.

After reading over the forums, we are something of an oddity since elementary and secondary schools are not a major concern for us since we intend upon home schooling our children when and if we have them.

If anyone has any suggestions or advice, especially regarding specific apartment or town home communities to look at, or if any of the realtors on the list have any advice for us, please let me know. I don't mind receiving private messages at all if that is easier for anyone. Thank you for your time and your help.

If you so enjoy rural living, why would it dawn on you to go to a school where the closest field is the next county over? Go to Iowa, rent a farmhouse and your commute will be twenty minutes. No homeless bums, no sketchy minorities, poverty is nice and hidden and the school is just as good. Even if you find your Valhalla an hour away from here, you are still going to be exposed to your own little personal hell on a daily basis and you will spend thousands of dollars for the privilege of commuting to it. Why do people make it so difficult for themselves?

[PhDCandidate]

You seem to be very militant about surrounding yourself with only white people and obviously have a HUGE chip on your shoulder about people of color.

That's funny because two of the researchers that attracted me to University of Minnesota are both black and a large portion of researchers in my area of interest are Indian and other "people of color" as you so eloquently stated. Just because I don't want to live around criminals, don't assume I believe only black people are criminals. Criminals and lowlifes are criminals and lowlifes no matter how darkly pigmented they happen to be.

Oh, and by the way, thanks for assuming I am a lily white Anglo-Saxon. I'm actually of Cherokee extraction so technically I'm "people of color".

I think we have a troll on our hands here...

Why do you assume that because I have a problem with living in the city? I asked about the outlying communities and have caught nothing but grief for that and received minimal information on the subject I asked about.

[PhDCandidate]

If you so enjoy rural living, why would it dawn on you to go to a school where the closest field is the next county over? Why do people make it so difficult for themselves?

Because it's one of a handful of schools that do research into my area of interest and the reputation of the school is stellar in the field I want to go to.

Go to Iowa, rent a farmhouse and your commute will be twenty minutes. No homeless bums, no sketchy minorities, poverty is nice and hidden

You've obviously never spent any time in Coralville, IA. LOL

1. Walkability - where I live now it is a short walk to several parks, bars, restaurants, coffee shops, convenience stores, supermarkets, barbershops, libraries and schools, the gym and other shopping.

I've gotten so used to having to drive 20-30 minutes to go to a store, that it's not a major issue of being within walking distance of anything. I mean it would be nice but at the same time it's not something that I put a lot of value upon.

2. Access to public transportation - I walk out my door and there is a bus stop within 200 feet and I'm a few short blocks away from a light rail station. I never worry about parking or driving to places like downtown, the airport and the mall of america because of the great access I have to public transportation.

Once again, I have zero problem driving even in heavy traffic.

4. Sense of neighborhood - I've never been so involved with my neighborhood than I am now and it's hard not to. We all keep in contact with each other through email, phone, facebook, etc. There is a neighborhood organization where we can get involved with various events and activities. Our block has regular meetings and we always have a very high turnout for national night out. I feel that the sense of community is much greater here than the suburbs I lived in.

The only community involvement I have any desire for is being on a volunteer fire department. Beyond that, I view "home" as being a place to get away from people and to relax. If I am friends with my neighbors, that's great but at the same time it's just as kosher with me for to be on a respectful but distant basis with them.

5. Markets within reach - not to say these don't exist in the suburbs but they are few and far between. Where I live now I am within walking distance of a farmer's market, a Hispanic market called Mercado Central and the Midtown Global Market.

See that is one of the only things I would actually miss not living in a city since I happen to love to cook and experiment with different cuisines.

6. Convenience - I alluded to this earlier but buying in the city meant my home would place me right in between where I study and where I work. This saves me several hours of commuting each week which I'm able to allocate to spending more time with my family, etc. Personally I think time saved from shortening commute times is really underrated. Maybe I value time more than other people, I don't know.

I just have gotten so used to it that it does not bother me.

7. More indepedantly owned businesses, more diversity in architecture - This is more of a personal preference but I like not living in an area filled with cookie cutter townhomes placed awkwardly in a labrinth of windy roads.

This is another reason why I would prefer not to live in a planned community but rather just rent an older house. I happen to agree with you that the cookie cutter apartments and townhomes get old really fast.

The architecture in Minneapolis/St. Paul is much more varied and, in my opinion, much less of an eye sore.

Also, I value being able to be close to more small, independantly owned businesses and not have to rely on big boxes and chain restaurants and stores. I'm not saying that these don't exist in the suburbs and that there aren't big boxes and chains in the city, but there is definitely more independantly owned businesses and ma and pa shops in the city whereas the suburbs generally have more big boxes and chains. You may or may not agree with me on this one but for me this is a big deal.

I've found exactly the opposite- that you see more small businesses in small towns or suburbs unless you are talking about a concentrated "urban renewal" area that has become popular with college students or upper crust people (the example of the latter that comes to mind is Birmingham, Michigan)

8. Less desolate feeling. I hate going to parks in the suburbs because they're always empty. I love walking to the parks by my house and see them full of people playing sports, having a picnic or taking their kids to play on the playground.

Ah....I tend to try to avoid large groups of people and when I go to parks (which is usually the wilderness variety not a suburban park) it's to get away from people and enjoy the scenery.

More prosperous? Have you seen the neighborhoods around Lake of Isles, Lake Calhoun and Lake Harriet?

Touche. Point taken. By the way Slig, thanks for elaborating on all of the points you touched on. I really appreciate the input and the fact that you're willing to help me out by giving me more insight into the area.

you are still going to be exposed to your own little personal hell on a daily basis and you will spend thousands of dollars for the privilege of commuting to it.

It's not my own personal hell. I don't mind working or going to school in the city, especially given the fact I am not going to be doing anything but going to class and doing my research (not exactly going out and rubbing shoulders with thugs any way you spin it). I just don't want to live there. There is a difference, believe it or not.

I think I would rather poke my eyes out with a knife than make the commute from a place like Waconia to the U every day. That would be very stressfull and a huge waste of my time. Make the commute yourself in the morning, you'll see what I mean. Been there, done that, not worth it at all.

I've actually driven in Minneapolis during rush hour and to me an hour commute isn't that stressful. Driving for an hour to work/school is something I'm quite used to.

I suspect you'll find that the Twin Cities are quite different from the other larger midwestern metro areas you've lived in, and some of the assumptions you seem to be making about in-town and inner-ring suburban neighborhoods simply do not hold true for either Minneapolis or St. Paul.

The crime statistics and what my friends who grew up there (male and female, white, black, Hispanic, etc) have to say seem to indicate that it is a lot more in common with cities that have issues that concern me than you want to indicate. Granted, it seems a lot more like Indianapolis than say Detroit (except for the traffic issues) but then again there's a reason why I want out of Indy even as "nice" as it is in comparison to other cities.

I would suggest doing significantly mroe research and then performing a complete re-evaluation. Don't map your previous experiences to all cities ... as a Twin Cities native who now lives in Atlanta, the differences between the attitudes and lifestyles you find inside different metro areas are sometimes HUGE even if they might look similar on the surface, and I think you're making some seriously misguided assumptions.

Right...that's why I am here. I am trying to do that research and figure out what there is to offer. Thus far, everything I've seen seems to indicate that even the various "good" neighborhoods in the city are lacking things I want and possessing things I'm trying to avoid. I really do appreciate the input and hope you can offer some more advice when I have additional questions or concerns.

[MplsTodd]

PhD Candidate

I think the reason you received such a negative attitude was based on your sweeping characterization that the city and immediate suburbs are run-down.

Beyond that, I think people should live where they want to live and if you have a solid preference for small towns, that's fine by me.

I'm not sure if you'll find many small towns which are upper middle class though as most are generally middle class or even lower-middle class (based on the thought that you drive until you can afford a house). But you may want to consider some of the towns along the St Croix River (Afton, Stillwater, Marine on St Croix, or even areas in Wisconsin). Communities around Lake Minnetonka (eg Excelsior, Spring Park, Minnetonka Beach), White Bear Lake may also be worth checking out. There are lots of nice towns further beyond the Twin Cities (Cambridge, Forest Lake, Northfield), but as for me, I agree with Slig--that there's a lot more of interest in the central core of the Twin Cities (Mpls, St. Paul and immediate suburbs) especially if you're commuting to Mpls--but again, that's where we have our differences and can agree to disagree.

[uptown_urbanist]

In the Twin Cities in general (not an absolute, but in general) the independent smaller stores tend to be in the actual cities and inner-ring suburbs, while the suburbs have far more big box stores and chains. I've lived in a number of other cities, too, (although not in the Midwest, admittedly) and I think you will find the Twin Cities to be different.

I don't think most people were intending to question or critique your preferences for living in the suburbs, but rather were responding to the concerns about "militant minorities" (and seemingly using homogenous neighborhoods as one of the barometers of a safe neighborhood). You are certainly entitled to prefer suburban living; many people do. It's just that some of your assumptions about what the city is like versus what the suburbs are like don't really hold up in the Twin Cities.

I get that you prefer the suburbs, but what are the "best" neighborhoods of the city itself lacking that you want, and what to they have that you don't want? Linden Hills, Kenwood, East Isles, for example, all have rich and upper middle class, mostly white, educated people, and little crime, not to mention proximity to the lakes and a short commute to the U. On the other hand, places in those neighborhoods do not come cheap, and if you don't mind driving long distances and don't like the benefits that come with walking to local stores, etc., you might as well save some money live somewhere farther out and drive in when you want a greater choice of non-chain restaurants and interesting architecture.

[PhDCandidate]

and seemingly using homogenous neighborhoods as one of the barometers of a safe neighborhood

Sorry, I meant that as in "everyone gets along" versus it being a "all-black" vs "all-white" vs "all-Latino" neighborhood. Like with milk that has been homogenized, nothing floats to the top and nothing settles to the bottom.

"militant minorities"

We have a large problem with that here in Indy that people think they are special simply because they are *insert ethnic origin* and it cuts across all groups (white, black, Hispanic, etc). I'm not special or unique because I'm a weird blend of Native American and German but rather because I'm "me". It pisses me off- not to put too fine of a point on it- when people are on high horses simply because their ancestors were treated in X manner and think the world owes them something for it. My ancestors were slaughtered but that doesn't entitle me to anything other than the knowledge that we need to strive to make sure if does not happen again. Maybe I'm just weird but I happen to agree with Rodney King's statement: "Why can't we all just get along?".

but what are the "best" neighborhoods of the city itself lacking that you want, and what to they have that you don't want? Linden Hills, Kenwood, East Isles, for example, all have rich and upper middle class, mostly white, educated people, and little crime, not to mention proximity to the lakes and a short commute to the U. On the other hand, places in those neighborhoods do not come cheap, and if you don't mind driving long distances and don't like the benefits that come with walking to local stores, etc., you might as well save some money live somewhere farther out and drive in when you want a greater choice of non-chain restaurants and interesting architecture.

Thanks. I really appreciate the advice. I will look into those areas.

[uptown_urbanist]

The Twin Cities has some all white neighborhoods, or at least mostly white neighborhoods, but in general you don't find many segregated neighborhoods of all one race or ethnicity. The white neighborhoods are more due to demographics than anything; Minnesota is a pretty white place, although it's changing and you will find more diversity in the Twin Cities, especially in the core cities and in certain inner suburbs, than you will in the exurbs. I'm not familiar with all of the Twin Cities' neighborhoods, but I can't think of any off hand that are all black, all Hispanic, all Hmong, etc. In that sense it feels very different from cities like DC, where you have extremely segregated neighborhoods and entire quadrants of the city, or, for that matter, heavily segregated middle and upper class suburbs.

And I'll echo the St. Anthony Park neighborhood of St. Paul suggestion; not rural, of course, but it definitely feels quieter than many city neighborhoods, yet is extremely convenient to the U. A lot of faculty live there, and there are a lot of beautiful homes. St. Paul is the agricultural campus, but is connected to the Minneapolis campus by a very quick shuttle bus that runs on a dedicated road (or a quick drive, but given the parking situation the bus is probably faster and easier). Anyway, it's safe, upscale, and quiet.

[PhDCandidate]

Thank you Uptown_Urbanist. I really appreciate the advice and will look into St. Anthony Park. Actually I have a whole list of places I need to look at because of this discussion.

[yellowsnow]

If I were going to work/school in mpls, I would live there. Especially if I was young and had no kids. The areas you are describing are bedroom communities for the most part, and pretty dull. Since you are both in your 20's and well educated, I would guess you would like to go out and do things. So I don't understand why you would isolate yourself from the city/university/libraries/cultural/recreational activities available in the city.

Next, why give yourself an awful commute when you don't have to? Winter can be more than 1/2 the year there and traffic is snarled even in good weather. I did this for years and it's no fun when your commute turns into a 3 hour white knuckle ordeal.

I would suggest you come visit. See for yourself. There are areas of the city that are convenient and fun. You can walk to the grocery, get coffee, and pick up a newspaper. It's a great lifestyle for a young professional.

[PhDCandidate]

The areas you are describing are bedroom communities for the most part, and pretty dull.

Technically that's kind of why I like them.

There are areas of the city that are convenient and fun. You can walk to the grocery, get coffee, and pick up a newspaper. It's a great lifestyle for a young professional.

You do have a point....do you have any suggestions that have not already been offered?