Life without a car in the Twin Cities (Apple Valley: home, buy)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan

First off, I lived in Lakeville for a dozen years. I have some vague conception of what i'm talking about. Alot of places have a sidewalk, you still have to cross the street. Crossing 42 is not something anyone would rationally do on a daily basis. Not because it is impossible, but quite uncomfortable. This person is from Boston and wants a comparable area. They are not moving from bumblestick Iowa. Secondly, Mpls. has a Rainbow in Uptown, 3 Cub Foods, Lund's, and a plethora of Supervalu's ON TOP of Whole Foods, Corner Markets, and Co-Ops. AV does not have a monopoly on that. It is not impossible or undone, but not what a Bostonian is thinking of when they say they want a walkable area where they don't need a car.

Then crossing 42 should be a piece of cake compared to walking in Boston because 42 at it's worst is still better then ANY street in Boston at it's best. 42 has stoplights and crosswalks and actually for every day things living in the townhomes near Cub you wouldn't have to cross 42 at all. Again, Apple Valley and MANY suburbs are very livable without a car if you are willing to walk some or take local bus transportation. Minneapolis does not have the monopoly on walkable neighborhoods.

[Minnehahapolitan]

Did anyone ever wonder why you almost never see pedestrians on the streets in AV? As I stated, it is doable but not comfortable. Mpls. certainly has no monopoly on walkability. We share that with Saint Paul, Saint Louis Park, Wayzata, Stillwater, Excelsior, Hopkins and many other communities. Apple Valley is not one of these communities. Apple Valley is a highly suburbanized community which logically does not appeal to somebody who lived in one of the country's densest cities without a car. I simply gave an example of Mpls. b/c it is the easiest place in the metro to not have a car. I could have said Saint Paul, even Hopkins and Saint Louis Park. I COULD NOT, in good conscience, have told that person to live in Apple Valley.

[cinnamon_toast]

I think you could get the basics done in Uptown or Downtown Mpls - health care, work, groceries, basic entertainment - but that's it. You would be SORELY inconvenienced to try and do anything else. I think there are very few people that don't own a car here.

As an aside, My DH and I used to own one car between the two of us when we lived in S. Minneapolis and that worked fine.

[golfgal]

Stillwater is less walkable then Apple Valley and Rosemount these days. The downtown area is all antique stores and restaurants. The shopping has moved out to Highway 36 with no good crossing from one area to the next. Add the steep hills in town and Stillwater is not what it used to be when I was growing up there.

Again, you have your opinion on this and I have mine the point being is that many of the suburbs are just as walkable for shopping as Minneapolis and St. Paul. I disagree with your assessment that AV is not walkable and there are MANY, MANY people that walk around AV with the extensive bike/walking paths everywhere.

[Minnehahapolitan]

People everywhere walk. People everywhere bike. But they do it for different reasons. The people walking around Apple Valley are doing so, generally, for pleasure and exercise. These people also have a car when they need it. Actually, I don't think our opinions are drastically different. Apple Valley is quite walkable, but (again) not in the way that it is urban and appealing to the orig. poster. Remember, also, that the part of Apple Valley that you speak of is quite small. Except for a couple subdivisions (which by chance and not design are close to the main shopping node) the vast majority of Apple Valley is laid out on curvilinear streets with large, single-family homes. These areas, too, are filled with walking paths. Target is not on these neighborhood paths. So yes, Apple Valley is very walkable. Lovely neighborhoods which focus on nature, not urbanity and a small node of apartment buildings and townhomes (not nearly as lovely) of which a few are close to a shopping district where streets are seven lanes wide and where the speed limit approaches speed itself does not constitute a walkable community for someone without a car. Oh, and I was looking on Met Tran., Buses come once an hour (except, of course, for the two routes which come every fifteen-minutes to half-hour during rush hour) Apparently, everyone who moved to Apple Valley for its walkability and urban conveniences only leave their house during rush hour. Curious. Also apparently in the 2 years since I moved, the city has installed bus shelters for you hour inconvenience. There made of glass, so you prob. can't see them.

[golfgal]

Apple Valley also has a local bus service. The express buses that go during rush hour come about every 5 minutes according to the people I know that actually ride the bus into Minneapolis to work-leaving from the very large transportation center where there are 100's of cars parked every day for those not wanting to drive into Minneapolis. Again, Apple Valley and MANY suburbs are very livable if you don't have a car because of the walkability and the local bus/taxi services.

[Ben Around]

I'm not buying any of this. There's walkable and there's walkable. By one standard being discussed here, Koochiching County is walkable. Just make sure you don't need to walk to a store, doctor, work, church, etc. But then the taxi service in International Falls would probably be happy to dispatch a cab to your home if you needed to go to someplace not walkable.

"Hatless" is from Boston, which has stellar mass transit. MSP's system cannot compare with it, but still it IS possible to live without a car in MSP if you carefully choose a neighborhood in MSP or St Paul, St Louis Park, Edina, Richfield, Robbinsdale or Columbia Heights (I'm probably missing a few similarly-situated first ring burbs with good service). Beyond these, forget it. Service is far too limited to depend on it in lieu of a car.

[golfgal]

Ben--Minnehahapolitan--what ever negative feelings you have with the suburbs I don't understand but the OP asked about living in the suburbs to start with so we can take it from there. THe local transportation systems in the suburbs are MUCH better then the city buses for the simple reason they pick you up at your house and take you where ever you want to go. You are not limited to a route. I am within walking distance of the grocery store, pharmacy, restaurants and other day to day needs here. For trips to the dr, I could call the bus or a taxi and they could take me there with no issues.

I can't see hauling 5 bags of groceries down Grand Ave for 7 blocks to get home either so I guess what one considers walkable or easy/convenient is a matter of personal opinion.

[Minnehahapolitan]

First off, I was talking about localized service. The MVTA, not Met. Transit. The only thing that drops you off at your house is DARTS, and you must be 65 or diasbled. I WILL REPEAT AGAIN, I have no disdain for suburbs. My heart is in a city, your isn't. Fine. You make my point here also. There are "hundreds of cars" in the PandR. This is not an area for the carless.
It is great that you live in a convenient area and have the opportunity to walk. It is better for your health and the enviornment. However, I will take a wild guess and say you have, perhaps, a CAR. Hence, when it is windy, 8 degrees, 108 degrees or pouring rain, you can drive somewhere and you DON"T have to wait for a bus on an uncovered bench in January.

P.S. - Only an idiot or a psychopath would walk down Grand (or our many other WALKABLE streets) with five bags of gorceries. You go to the store 3-4times a week (easy, as you can walk to it) and buy your food. That way you aren't a danger on the sidewalk and your food is fresher. This option is possible though, kinda like living in Apple Valley without a car.

[Ben Around]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Ben--Minnehahapolitan--what ever negative feelings you have with the suburbs I don't understand but the OP asked about living in the suburbs to start with so we can take it from there. .

Are we responding to the same thread, golfgal? Here's the entirity of the original post:

"How is life without a car in the Twin Cities? Neither Hubby nor I drive, and we get along fine in Boston, but Boston has widespread public transit. How is public transit in the Twin Cities? How late does it run? How is the light rail? How extensive are the bike trails? How safe are they?"

Where does she ask about living in the suburbs? She's asking us to compare transit in the Twin Cities with Boston's system. Have you ever been there or used their system? I know what Boston's system is like, I have used in on several visits to that city. The suburban system you describe is nothing like Boston's.