Has increasing ethnic diversity in MN affected Minnesota Nice? (Minneapolis: crimes, loans)

[roneb]

Wow! Teddy was a great man, but I don't want to live in an America that is so homogonized. If we all have to assimilate entirely into the predominant American culture than we'd all better start listening to rap music and hanging out at the mall! I for one love learning about experiencing what German-Americans, Irish-Americans, Native-Americans cherish about their own culture. And blind unwavering patriotism that is intolerant of deferences makes us weaker, not stronger. But hey, I also firmly believe Dubya Bush is an idiot who has completely compromised our nation.

[Atalanta]

I would say Minnesota nice has declined due to different cultures and due to everyone so doggone busy.

I don't think people trust other's like they used to.
And for sure more people as what they can get for themselves instead of what I can do for others.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by AVguy

I saw this post a little while back and I suppose that no one else wanted to take a crack at it. Well, I'm going to hit this point "Our country's feel good policies have allowed immigrants to get lazy about assimilating. That's why we've got sky high ESL costs, etc. etc." The poster assumes that speaking a language, per se, leads to assimilation. To that point, I think that speaking the same language can still lead to some pretty substantial differences: white vs. black, North vs. South, blue collar vs. white collar, etc. All of these groups speak English, but all have different customs and cultures. Have you noticed the differences between white and black churches? They are generally pretty different (in my experience, at least). Cultural differences extend beyond our ability to speak English.

The most offensive part of this post, and possibly the most hypocritical part, regards immigrants who are "lazy," presumably because they have not learned English yet. That's ridiculous. If you are a self-proclaimed "conservative," then sit down and enjoy this historical bit. In 1896, Minnesota's official election instructions were issued in nine languages: English, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, French, Czech, Italian, and Polish. (Immigration in Minnesota Fact Sheet) Minnesota embraced immigrants and we still should today. A conservative should appreciate that.

As another example, German immigrants that moved to the Midwest in the late 19th century and early 20th century were generally slower than other immigrant groups to assimilate into American society. This occurred because of the shear number of German immigrants in the Midwest and the fact that they had separate businesses, churches, schools, and the like. Under your neocon view, we would have been wise to not allow entry to these American wannabes. However, the second generation of German immigrants more easily assimilated into American culture, due in part to learning English in school, and the rest is history.

Under the guise of concern about assimilation, you claim that immigrants do not want to assimilate. It's like you expect all immigrants to come to the United States wearing a cowboy hat, eating a corn dog, waving an American flag, and speaking perfect English. It has never worked that way in the past and it never will. So what is the best way to teach English to second-generation immigrants? My response is ESL programs. But you are against ESL because it costs too much. So far as I can tell, you do not actually want immigrants to assimilate or else you would approve of programs geared toward integrating immigrants. For a conservative, you sure do not have an appreciation of the past.

Very well put. I think that the real reason immigration is being met with some opposition has more to do with the fact that these new immigrants aren't from Europe or of European origin. And this goes with any state.

[HockeyFan]

Originally Posted by Dingler

When I grew up in small town Minnesota we knew all our neighbors and felt comfortable with everyone. Some were nicer than others but we shared a common bond. Why? Because 98% of us were either German or Swedish going back five generations. Most people in my home town Great Grandparents were immigrants, but few were actual first generation immigrants. We all shared a common culture and appearance. It made me feel comfortable.

Now the street I grew up with has all kinds of people who are not typical Minnesotans. The friendly neighborhood is now divided. People feel out of place and divide into racial groups. Wasn't the old boring Minnesota easier? Or maybe not?

Hmm, another example of why I could not meet anyone in Minnesota. I moved in from out of state, and met... nobody. In three years. And generally, I'm the type of person who is outgoing and meets friends within days/weeks of moving somewhere.

I always felt like I was treated as an "outsider", and people's social circles were more or less set at birth.

To me, the changing fabric of Minnesota would be a good thing. Because the traditional Minnesota is unbelievably closed to newcomers.

I apologize if this offends anyone, but I think anyone thinking of Minnesota needs to be warned -- it is not like anywhere else I've been. Fitting in is, more or less, impossible.

[HockeyFan]

Originally Posted by chilaili

Minnesota Nice to me never meant actually being nice to one another. I lived there 10 years and realised after the first 6-12 months that all Minnesota Nice meant was a) never being honest with someone, b) telling someone what you think they want to hear and c) never ever letting an outsider into your little clique of family and friends but being oh so polite to them the rest of the time. Thankfully over the years I did meet several Minnesotans who did not conform to this culture and made me feel welcome and wanted, rather than a pariah. Maybe the reason some of the immigrants don't mingle or talk is because they sense they're not really wanted? So why bust a gut trying to make friends with people who smile with their mouths but never their eyes?

This could have been written about me -- except I gave up after three years. Sadly, I did not find the non-conformists.

[pirate_lafitte]

I have thought about moving to Minnesota since I was in high school. If any of these posts are true, I hope it's just a few Minnesotans who are like that and not the vast numbers. What scares me is that I could end up being resentful of Minnesota the way I am of other places(I hope I never get to that point).
As for Minnesota nice, what is actually needed is just down to earth honest and friendly. If Minnesota nice really is "passive agressive", that is sad.
I think smugness could also cause problems.

[Ben Around]

Originally Posted by Trino

I think there are two Minnesotas - outstate and the Twin Cities. Within the TC you'll find diversity in social structure, housing, and employment. However, that being said, it still doesn't mean suburbanites mix socially with other cultures out of the work place.

Outstate MN is less diverse, especially in northern MN.

TC is also more liberal than outstate MN.

I agree, Trino. I've lived in 5 states. I'm originally a Northeasterner, raised by Northeasterners. I live in MN now and lived in IA for several years as an adult. The stand-offish, treat-ya-nice but you're not one of us attitude I encountered in IA as well as MN. I think it is more specifically a rural thing. I don't seem to notice a whole lot of this where I live (St Paul) , but when I do, it's often people from rural areas outstate who have moved to the Cities. My job takes me to outstate MN, and that's where I see the kind of standoffish behavior discussed here. When I lived in in IA, I rarely saw it in Iowa City, where there is a big University and people from all over the US and the world, but I encountered it a lot in a couple of small towns in SE Iowa where I briefly lived. I was often asked whether I was related to other people who had the same last name as mine, or asked where my "people" came from. They'd even notice out of state and out of county license plates and make remarks. Perhaps just curiousity, but I didn't take it that way. I think Garrison Keillor does a good job af capturing this phenomenon in his Lake Wobegon tales.

[sushigirlie]

Originally Posted by Dingler

When I grew up in small town Minnesota we knew all our neighbors and felt comfortable with everyone. Some were nicer than others but we shared a common bond. Why? Because 98% of us were either German or Swedish going back five generations. Most people in my home town Great Grandparents were immigrants, but few were actual first generation immigrants. We all shared a common culture and appearance. It made me feel comfortable.

Now the street I grew up with has all kinds of people who are not typical Minnesotans. The friendly neighborhood is now divided. People feel out of place and divide into racial groups. Wasn't the old boring Minnesota easier? Or maybe not?

yes, a very strange opinion, I must say. This is the reason why new-comers in minneapolis feel the way the do! Unfortunately, this reasoning in Minneapolis is a common phenomenon. I've lived in the city for 7 years, I know! As far as picking native minnesotan friends, I've realized, that my odds are good, but the goods are odd.

[sugarbeet]

I seem to see a trend among the people who think "Minnesota Nice" is dwindling because of the increase in diversity. These are always people who "fit in" in the past. They lived among all people of the same ethnic background in the same town for five generations.

In 1979 (I was 6) my family moved to in a small Minnesota town that was settled by Polish Catholics. For a long time I was the only person in my class whose parents and grandparents (maybe even great grandparents) weren't born there.

Even though I was a white American, my parents grew up in a different town and as Norwegian Lutherans, we were "different" even though if you look in the mirror we all pretty much looked the same and certainly spoke the same language (although I never heard any of the Poles say "uffda").

The point I'm making here is that if you grow up in an insulated environment - and Minnesota's small towns take insulated to a whole new level - even the slightest difference can make people outcasts. This makes it even more challenging for people from other countries who speak foreign languages to be accepted by some people.

However, I will be completely clear by saying that most Minnesotans are accepting of people from other places. It just might not seem that way because there is a tendency to be private and mind your own business. I just moved back after about 10 years in many other states. People here are nice, it's just in our nature to keep people a bit at arm's length.

[LM1]

Minnesota is a very, very "liberal minded" state (although a totally unique breed of liberal, unlike what can be found in almost any other state, save for maybe rural Vermont. They're the sort of liberal that even a conservative or a libertarian (like me) can respect)

One of the key precepts of all "liberalism" - including present day Minnesota liberalism- is valuing idealism over reality. Many of the functional dynamics of modern liberal thinking simply cannot exist when held to a realistic standard, so the way around that is to simply place the onus of importance on the idea, rather than the result. A liberal figures out their belief structure by way of their own isolated life experiences, cobbles up a set of ideals to match and then dogmatically ascribes themselves to them, often times at the expense of fact, reason and/or logic. Of course, the granddaddy of all liberal beliefs is "equality".

Even if every demonstrable indicator suggests otherwise, the liberal minded person will rationalize this ideal to their dying breath, often times concocting up bizarre and outlandish theories in support. They are willing to overlook the negative impacts their beliefs cause because to them, the belief itself is worth more than the effects it has when put into practice.

The reason I just mused philosophical there is because the state of Minnesota is probably the most classic of all classic examples of what happens when feel-good idealism is put into action, without any mechanisms to reverse the changes should they show themselves to be flawed. It started in the 1960's when Southern blacks were "invited" to Minnesota with the state welfare system as the predicate "safety net", and it has evolved into what we see today.

A large part of the reason racial issues in this country will never, ever be resolved is because the truth is held liable to people who will shout "racist" whenever an unflattering or unfortunate racial truism is mentioned. Since you cannot repair or heal things that you cannot even speak about, this issue will linger and languish, creating fractures between those who believe in a perfect world, and those of us who live in the real world.

In short, much of what is considered to be 'racist' is absolutely, positively reality, but since we can't say it, it will continue to perpetuity.

I'm done waxing.