My thoughts on "Minnesota Nice" (Lakeville, Shakopee: condo, homes)

[Jocelyneh]

I thought I'd give an outsider view from England to answer this and other posters: "I wish you all could go out into the rest of the country for awhile and check out other folks to get a true understanding of yourselves. You aren't all you've got yourselves cracked up to be".

I moved here just over 3 years ago and at first loved it, and still have fond feelings for the place. England, if you haven't been there, is incredibly polite, friendly, and reserved just like here, so it takes a long time to connect with people, especially in London. Their politeness even extends to driving with drivers letting others pull out of junctions, waving people on to go ahead of them, etc.

Everyone is nice to your face and helpful in England, but as one of the posts referred to, being polite doesn't necessarily mean that they will invite your into their homes or to go out for the evening. The British on a whole pride privacy, so that they won't impinge on your privacy and won't like their own being impinged on until you get to know each other better. Thus, it takes even longer to make friends in England than in Minnesota, unless you join interest groups full of like-minded people such as a sports club for example.

However, I have visited many countries, and there is something about the northern European mindset that always exudes polite, friendly, pleasantry, but at a distance until you get to know each other better where Italians, Mexicans, Africans, Carribbeans, etc., do not. So perhaps with the strong Scandinavian/German background, Minnesotans exude similar traits to the British.

Yet, in my experience, Minnesota is actually a more welcoming place than my home country because I found it very easy to make friends in a very short period of time, mostly with people from small towns - I live in St. Cloud with friends from Worthington, Cold Water, Bemidji, Melrose, Mille Lacs, etc. After being here only 3 weeks I had friends move me into a new apartment, give new furniture, and using contacts to find a cheap car, avoid bank charges for opening a new account, and cheap insurance. And I've continued to have this same kind of treatment, with these same people making sure that I am not alone at holidays and always invited out.

However, it is not all a rosy picture of happiness. I struggle to adjust to and feel fully accepted by those around me no matter how friendly and supportive they are. The main problem I believe is the cultural differences and social expectations of me as both an individual and a woman that differ immensely. The major difference between Minnesotans and Europeans is that the latter are more open-minded and less judgemental as a result. Thus, they couldn't careless what you look like, do, have done, sound like, etc - it is "all good" becasue they love the mixture and variety it adds to life.

I believe that many Minnesotans are very provincial and often do not realize that due to their narrow view of the world that they are being rude and offensive, and even pressuring me to conform to their ways to make me more "tolerable" because they cannot and will not accept difference very well. So, it often "feels like HS again" because a lot of people are very judgemental and quick to put you down, all in a polite manner of course - a kind of polite peer pressure to have you conform to their ways.

For example, when I first came here I expressed my feelings of happiness, excitement, anger freely and openly, only to find others feeling uncomfortable and putting me down for it. I learnt from observation of women especially, that you are supposed to respond to the "mild" put downs with a self-deprecating laugh. Yet, my Northern English upbringing taught me to laugh at myself and come back with a better comment -to stand up for myrself and give the other a chance to laugh at their own idiosyncracies and again come back at you until a verbal winner was found as everyone laughed. This was for Minnesotans too much and I was labelled "aggressive", "defensive", & "a challenge/firecracker". I have the distinct feeling I'm not passively submissive enough for men here, which may explain female pals asking for my advice on how to stand up for themselves!

I am constantly being pointed out as an outsider, well that accent just won't go away, so I am constantly being laughed at for talking "funny", corrected for the wrong word choice, and even being told "isn't it about time you spoke like us" or worse still, "yeah, it's cute to fake that you can't speak proper (!)". Many here, when I try to point out that I am using the language I spent over 30 years using and it's not a cute act, but natural to rely on this first dialect, simply cannot fathom that differences will exist between us always and many become intimidated by them.

I have found how easily some Minnesotans are intimidated by differences and respond with that infamous 'passive-aggressive' put down simply because I have "fancy" alternative ideas of what could be fun. I find few takers for my interests, so off to the same bars or for a change grilling out and playing the same lawn games for the last 3 years. I also sense intimidation and inferiority when I talk about all things English and my world-wide experiences, which are once again subject to a put down, so it becomes hard to reveal who I am and all the things I have done without upsetting people just because they haven't done it. Yet, I don't judge them negatively for it, but believe they think I do, and I'm not sure how to convey this to them without keeping my mouth shut and going along with their ideas so they feel comformatable - it's a kind of cultural co-dependency!

Yet, I recognize that I too struggle to accept their provincial ways with the same level of value as my own ways, so leads to feelings of unacceptability on both sides. Yet, I am not intimidated and long for one of my pals to lose their temper - I'd put out the bunting!

[Jocelyneh]

Guess I had a lot to get off my chest

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by Jocelyneh

Yet, I am not intimidated and long for one of my pals to lose their temper - I'd put out the bunting!

Wow, I think you summed it all up very well. Good job.

I think your friends might have the very best of intentions when they try to get you to 'fit in' or conform to their ways. Mostly, cuz we see 'blending in' as the best way. We don't like to stand out in a crowd so, we just 'assume' others don't want to either. LOL
Not saying they are right....just that they think they are and it's "for your own good."

*Laffin* As far as the back and forth banter...I think here 1 comeback is acceptable.. 2 is really pushing the limits and 3 is overkill. Minnesotans really don't have any concept of a verbal sparring.

Oh BTW, ya might have to wait a good, long time for the temper thing but...stranger things have happened.

[alex1lake]

I am originally from Russia and have an accent too, however i have never experienced people putting me down or make fun of me or my accent here in MN (or anywhere i lived previously- CA,OR, MA).
I have great respect for people from Engalnd: when i first came to US, English couple helped me tremendously to get established here, i will never forget this...

[sushigirlie]

Well, doesn;t that indicate that people from England, and not people from Minnesota that helped you to get etablished in Minnesota. That should speak volumes about the natives. You got to rethink your statement as to who do you really like: native Minnesotans or transplants... Right?

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by sushigirlie

Well, doesn;t that indicate that people from England, and not people from Minnesota that helped you to get etablished in Minnesota. That should speak volumes about the natives. You got to rethink your statement as to who do you really like: native Minnesotans or transplants... Right?

Why can't it be both?
alex1lake mentioned the English friends helping when he/she first came to the US. I don't think that means MN though, since they mentioned being in CA and MA previously.

[alex1lake]

my comment about people from Engalnd was meant for Jocelyneh. I also had American people helping me, it just happened though that reserved and well mannered English couple helped the most when I was going through tough times. Overall people in US (MA, OR,AC MN- are the states I have lived in) have never given me hard time regarding my accent. If anything, many of them are interested to hear about Russia and my experience there.

No doubt people in MN are reserved. I went to a couple of parties here and was surprised to see that the only people we could freely communicate with were transplants from out of state. I must say though our neigbours (we live in the suburbs) are everything one can wish for: helpful, social, block parties, etc. Overall impression though: a lot easier to make friends with west coast population. I still have two real good friends there and none here.

[PBC19]

Originally Posted by Jocelyneh

I thought I'd give an outsider view from England to answer this and other posters: "I wish you all could go out into the rest of the country for awhile and check out other folks to get a true understanding of yourselves. You aren't all you've got yourselves cracked up to be".

I moved here just over 3 years ago and at first loved it, and still have fond feelings for the place. England, if you haven't been there, is incredibly polite, friendly, and reserved just like here, so it takes a long time to connect with people, especially in London. Their politeness even extends to driving with drivers letting others pull out of junctions, waving people on to go ahead of them, etc.

Everyone is nice to your face and helpful in England, but as one of the posts referred to, being polite doesn't necessarily mean that they will invite your into their homes or to go out for the evening. The British on a whole pride privacy, so that they won't impinge on your privacy and won't like their own being impinged on until you get to know each other better. Thus, it takes even longer to make friends in England than in Minnesota, unless you join interest groups full of like-minded people such as a sports club for example.

However, I have visited many countries, and there is something about the northern European mindset that always exudes polite, friendly, pleasantry, but at a distance until you get to know each other better where Italians, Mexicans, Africans, Carribbeans, etc., do not. So perhaps with the strong Scandinavian/German background, Minnesotans exude similar traits to the British.

Yet, in my experience, Minnesota is actually a more welcoming place than my home country because I found it very easy to make friends in a very short period of time, mostly with people from small towns - I live in St. Cloud with friends from Worthington, Cold Water, Bemidji, Melrose, Mille Lacs, etc. After being here only 3 weeks I had friends move me into a new apartment, give new furniture, and using contacts to find a cheap car, avoid bank charges for opening a new account, and cheap insurance. And I've continued to have this same kind of treatment, with these same people making sure that I am not alone at holidays and always invited out.

However, it is not all a rosy picture of happiness. I struggle to adjust to and feel fully accepted by those around me no matter how friendly and supportive they are. The main problem I believe is the cultural differences and social expectations of me as both an individual and a woman that differ immensely. The major difference between Minnesotans and Europeans is that the latter are more open-minded and less judgemental as a result. Thus, they couldn't careless what you look like, do, have done, sound like, etc - it is "all good" becasue they love the mixture and variety it adds to life.

I believe that many Minnesotans are very provincial and often do not realize that due to their narrow view of the world that they are being rude and offensive, and even pressuring me to conform to their ways to make me more "tolerable" because they cannot and will not accept difference very well. So, it often "feels like HS again" because a lot of people are very judgemental and quick to put you down, all in a polite manner of course - a kind of polite peer pressure to have you conform to their ways.

For example, when I first came here I expressed my feelings of happiness, excitement, anger freely and openly, only to find others feeling uncomfortable and putting me down for it. I learnt from observation of women especially, that you are supposed to respond to the "mild" put downs with a self-deprecating laugh. Yet, my Northern English upbringing taught me to laugh at myself and come back with a better comment -to stand up for myrself and give the other a chance to laugh at their own idiosyncracies and again come back at you until a verbal winner was found as everyone laughed. This was for Minnesotans too much and I was labelled "aggressive", "defensive", & "a challenge/firecracker". I have the distinct feeling I'm not passively submissive enough for men here, which may explain female pals asking for my advice on how to stand up for themselves!

I am constantly being pointed out as an outsider, well that accent just won't go away, so I am constantly being laughed at for talking "funny", corrected for the wrong word choice, and even being told "isn't it about time you spoke like us" or worse still, "yeah, it's cute to fake that you can't speak proper (!)". Many here, when I try to point out that I am using the language I spent over 30 years using and it's not a cute act, but natural to rely on this first dialect, simply cannot fathom that differences will exist between us always and many become intimidated by them.

I have found how easily some Minnesotans are intimidated by differences and respond with that infamous 'passive-aggressive' put down simply because I have "fancy" alternative ideas of what could be fun. I find few takers for my interests, so off to the same bars or for a change grilling out and playing the same lawn games for the last 3 years. I also sense intimidation and inferiority when I talk about all things English and my world-wide experiences, which are once again subject to a put down, so it becomes hard to reveal who I am and all the things I have done without upsetting people just because they haven't done it. Yet, I don't judge them negatively for it, but believe they think I do, and I'm not sure how to convey this to them without keeping my mouth shut and going along with their ideas so they feel comformatable - it's a kind of cultural co-dependency!

Yet, I recognize that I too struggle to accept their provincial ways with the same level of value as my own ways, so leads to feelings of unacceptability on both sides. Yet, I am not intimidated and long for one of my pals to lose their temper - I'd put out the bunting!

I found your comments fascinating and very truthful. I grew up in a small town in MN and have lived throughout the country and agree with many of your observations. I think it's funny how people compare individuals and label them all "nice" or not.....if you traveled at all, you know that every area has it's own "culture" good or bad....and that there are nice people everywhere. It's silly to generalize a whole state as "nice" and then get angry when they are not meeting up to your expectations. If I could figure out how to email you offline, I would. We'll be moving to St CLoud next spring and I think it'd be great to be friends.

[Guero]

While I have my own issues with certain aspects of Minnesota life, I have to say that making fun of accents and feelings of cultural inferiority are not the norm here. In fact, MN is very internationally connected on many levels. There is a strong interest in other cultures here, to be sure.

Time to look for some new friends, me thinks. Just like any place, you can find holier-than-thou types and passive-aggressive idiots, and that goes for Europe too, where I have traveled extensively and have been given cause to lift an eyebrow or two at times, with regard to the local's treatment of myself or other non-locals. But then again, I have found myself with raised eyebrows at times in New York, Georgia, New Mexico, Texas, Wyoming, California, Mexico, Canada, Korea, and my home town here in MN... getting the idea?

Personally, I dislike this sort of thing. The arguments on both sides seem so jingoistic to me. I always marvel at the attitude folks like some of those above display when ranting about someone else. I think maybe someone above, who seems rather angry, needs a bit of a look in the mirror, because they are sounding exactly like what they are trying to pin on Minnesotans. Gossipy, judgmental, and the generalizations are just silly. Speaking in generalized absolutes like, "We can always tell the ones that aren't from here because they are much friendlier and geniune people we come across." serves no one. That's such an obviously exaggerated and and at least partially concocted statement, all for the sake of argument.

Nothing good ever comes of trying to shoehorn people into boxes, whether they be positive, negative or anywhere in between.

[localinsight]

When I moved to Rochester, MN (tried to get out of the cities sub-forum, don't know if I did) about 20 months ago, I thought I wanted to settle down here. Everyone was so friendly & nice. After living 22 years in So. CA. it is relaxing to not fear for one's safety just because you can't pay 1200/mo to rent a one bedrm apt.
It took me a long time to catch on to this "MN Nice"... I thought everyone was just nice. No. I agree with the other posters who label a lot of it MN Passive Agressive. I say a lot because people are much nicer here, more pleasant, than many places. Some of this runs to all aspects of people's lives. Let's face it, there are wonderful people everywhere. I am enjoying many things about life in MN, but true friendship is not one of them. And I am not alone. You don't really know who your true friends are here because everyone is so nice. To a point. They don't let you into their lives as easily as other places. Some of this maybe attributed to a reserved nature but much is due to the fact that they are jugemental.
Not being gunned down in your apt. complex is good, not everything. I haven't found MN to be tolerant of, let alone enjoy, any verbal banter at all. We all have to be mild (even when insulted, thanks, I didn't realize that one) and say only good things about our town, our state, etc. This actually is dangerous. Not all is rosy in MN. Where does all this tax money go - in the local paper here it seems schools are great, until someone writes in with other figures, like it depends on your income level. Then h/she is attacked.
I would rather have been told about MN tending to blame victims rather than go against an accepted grain of stereotype before I moved here. Rather than come out and say a bias has a valid other side, people just go along like travel agents. It must be that person's fault, for being treated unfairly, unfairness like that would never happen here. Not true. This state is a haven for the corporation. Just like CA, but in CA they admit it.
People are far more judgemental here than in conservative CA, liberal MA, or NH (though to characterize). It took over a year for me to meet up with residents in my apt. building and discuss the strangeness of this state. I felt guilty with my frustration because people are nice. Truely, in a disaster, I found many people willing to help. But not willing to accept others over a longer time. And there are exceptions. I didn't know for a long time that some of my comments weren't appreciated because no one let on (I am female, may be men are more direct).
Eventually I got the feeling that it was kind of like a stepford wives thing, but not in content (evil or anything) but in this cookie cutter fakeness that isn't discerned from outside. People in MN will help, but maybe once or twice. They are, in my opinion more clannish than Boston. If you need something you can ask, but who wants to all the time. outside of their own family, I don't find that people here think of one another on a daily basis as much as other places. In other places fewer people may be nice, or offer a pleasantry when you move in, but you can identify genuine.
As I said, not everyone. But the MN media, etc. seem to participate in this rah rah MN - great when it's true. MN is international? In some ways. Less so than my former communities. It just seems to me that MN has dangerous blinders on. This state is not as progressive as advertised and I have found govt. agencies less willing to investigate grievances with out reporting, not to the complaintant, that really h/she is just a bad apple. Everything is fine. If it's true, good. If not, it is more dangerous to proclaim that Mn is doing just great.
It is late, i am tired and I know I didn't get my point across well. If you disagree and are feeling a bit hostile, there is the blame.