My thoughts on "Minnesota Nice" (St. Cloud, Brainerd: home, college)

[Jocelyneh]

Originally Posted by Guero

While I have my own issues with certain aspects of Minnesota life, I have to say that making fun of accents and feelings of cultural inferiority are not the norm here. In fact, MN is very internationally connected on many levels. There is a strong interest in other cultures here, to be sure.

Time to look for some new friends, me thinks. Just like any place, you can find holier-than-thou types and passive-aggressive idiots, and that goes for Europe too, where I have traveled extensively and have been given cause to lift an eyebrow or two at times, with regard to the local's treatment of myself or other non-locals. But then again, I have found myself with raised eyebrows at times in New York, Georgia, New Mexico, Texas, Wyoming, California, Mexico, Canada, Korea, and my home town here in MN... getting the idea?

Personally, I dislike this sort of thing. The arguments on both sides seem so jingoistic to me. I always marvel at the attitude folks like some of those above display when ranting about someone else. I think maybe someone above, who seems rather angry, needs a bit of a look in the mirror, because they are sounding exactly like what they are trying to pin on Minnesotans. Gossipy, judgmental, and the generalizations are just silly. Speaking in generalized absolutes like, "We can always tell the ones that aren't from here because they are much friendlier and geniune people we come across." serves no one. That's such an obviously exaggerated and and at least partially concocted statement, all for the sake of argument.

Nothing good ever comes of trying to shoehorn people into boxes, whether they be positive, negative or anywhere in between.

"Yet, I recognize that I too struggle to accept their provincial ways with the same level of value as my own ways, so leads to feelings of unacceptability on both sides"

The above quote was in recognition of your point, I note that I struggle with acceptance and approval because I am from a different culture, so am as equally guilty of judgementality.

And while I recognize that 'provincial' could be derogative, it's not meant to be. As someone said to me this weekend, "Minnesotans like the simple life; my brother could spend every day of his life hunting and want nothing more to be happy". This is perhaps what I meant to express, yet I have never turned to anyone and belittled them for their interests as I have been - the phrase "why, that's dumb" or the incredibly offensive "that's so gay" doesn't leave my lips.

I personally have tried to be as accepting as I could for others, but it is difficult when you are pointed out as an outsider - yet, as noted by AuntieBob and myself, it is never meant with malicious intent. Something I am well aware of, so I don't like being infered as "RANTING" but rather making a considered contribution to the discussion from my viewpoint.

My close friends don't poke fun at my accent - so I won't be needing to find new ones, thanks. But they will just as with all the new people I meet, generally mimic it because they like the British accent. It may be harmless and even complimentary, but it is also a constant reminder that you are not local. No problem with that, I love my accent and like being different, but I have never copied or heard another friend of mine (both English and overseas) copy another's accent in my presence - it's rude. This is what I mean about feeling like an outsider.

And my problem is not cultural inferiority for the British, but the cultural superiority that Minnesotans give me, in turn making them feel culturally inferior in comparison. Which I don't want them to feel - this is my difficulty in living here and being myself, and wanting equal acceptance. As the other poster stated, it's hard to not feel guilty when you judge others hobbies, quirks, etc as soemthing your couldn't do, especially when they are so nice and have no intentions to harm.

For example, burping out loud and giving each other a high-five for it's loudness, is quite frankly something that I and my countryfolk wouldn't do. So I judge naturally, and refrain from condoning by not joining in the contest or high-fiving, and just smile. So explain to me, how do you acft yourself and still somehow not judge others?


Ah, yes there are many who would, even Europeans who act as passive-aggressively (actually they'd be direct and more overt - you can spot the enemy quickly). I just haven't encountered it as much or commonplace in so many areas of life before.

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by localinsight

It took me a long time to catch on to this "MN Nice"... I thought everyone was just nice. No. I agree with the other posters who label a lot of it MN Passive Agressive. I say a lot because people are much nicer here, more pleasant, than many places.

Not being gunned down in your apt. complex is good, not everything. I haven't found MN to be tolerant of, let alone enjoy, any verbal banter at all.

Not all is rosy in MN. Where does all this tax money go - in the local paper here it seems schools are great, until someone writes in with other figures, like it depends on your income level. Then h/she is attacked.

People are far more judgemental here than in conservative CA, liberal MA, or NH (though to characterize).

Eventually I got the feeling that it was kind of like a stepford wives thing, but not in content (evil or anything) but in this cookie cutter fakeness that isn't discerned from outside.
As I said, not everyone. But the MN media, etc. seem to participate in this rah rah MN - great when it's true. MN is international? In some ways. Less so than my former communities. It just seems to me that MN has dangerous blinders on.

Much of what you say is true. Although, it's probably true of most any place.
I think one of the reasons we are so defensive about MN, and we all act like members of the Chamber of Commerce in promoting it is...we've taken so much flack for so long about living up in no mans land, the tundra, the frozen wilderness and whatever else you can think to say about it, that we've always felt we had to justify living here. Therefor, we want people to know about the good things too, not just the man-eating mosquitos.

You are probably right in the Stepford Wives assessment too. The last thing most of us want is to stand out in a crowd or be 'different' in any way.
We're as judgemental and critical of our own as we are of outsiders in that one.

I think you are right on the verbal banter thing too. Personally, it's something I enjoy but, I rarely get to do it. It starts out OK but, the other person always drops the ball after about 2 volley's.
Bitching about what's wrong with MN is another one of my favorite things to do but, that rarely goes very far either.

I think, if we don't acknowledge our shortcomings, there's no way of fixing them. MN is good... I love but, I think we can only rest on our laurels for so long before things start going backwards.

*Laffin* you do realize that the term "conservative CA" sounds like a real oxymoron to someone from MN though, right?

Personally, I think one of the best ways to both meet 'real' Minnesotans and also to become one is to find a charity to become involved with.
Do some volunteer time at a food shelf, a soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity or anything else that might fit with your interests. Things like that are where you will more often form a bond or friendship with people.
And if you don't....you've lost nothing in trying. You may not make a new friend but, you'll walk away with the 'feel goods' cuz you helped someone else.

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by Jocelyneh

My close friends don't poke fun at my accent - so I won't be needing to find new ones, thanks. But they will just as with all the new people I meet, generally mimic it because they like the British accent. It may be harmless and even complimentary, but it is also a constant reminder that you are not local. No problem with that, I love my accent and like being different, but I have never copied or heard another friend of mine (both English and overseas) copy another's accent in my presence - it's rude. This is what I mean about feeling like an outsider.

I think a lot of us are just enamored with 'accents'. See, we don't think we have any up here so, when someone speaks differently we really like it. So much so, that we are apt to try and copy it. Just to try it out.

*grins* Next time someone copies your accent...just say "yaaah shure, you betcha, you got it now by golly."

[Guero]

Originally Posted by Jocelyneh

"Yet, I recognize that I too struggle to accept their provincial ways with the same level of value as my own ways, so leads to feelings of unacceptability on both sides"

The above quote was in recognition of your point, I note that I struggle with acceptance and approval because I am from a different culture, so am as equally guilty of judgementality.

And while I recognize that 'provincial' could be derogative, it's not meant to be. As someone said to me this weekend, "Minnesotans like the simple life; my brother could spend every day of his life hunting and want nothing more to be happy". This is perhaps what I meant to express, yet I have never turned to anyone and belittled them for their interests as I have been - the phrase "why, that's dumb" or the incredibly offensive "that's so gay" doesn't leave my lips.

I personally have tried to be as accepting as I could for others, but it is difficult when you are pointed out as an outsider - yet, as noted by AuntieBob and myself, it is never meant with malicious intent. Something I am well aware of, so I don't like being infered as "RANTING" but rather making a considered contribution to the discussion from my viewpoint.

My close friends don't poke fun at my accent - so I won't be needing to find new ones, thanks. But they will just as with all the new people I meet, generally mimic it because they like the British accent. It may be harmless and even complimentary, but it is also a constant reminder that you are not local. No problem with that, I love my accent and like being different, but I have never copied or heard another friend of mine (both English and overseas) copy another's accent in my presence - it's rude. This is what I mean about feeling like an outsider.

And my problem is not cultural inferiority for the British, but the cultural superiority that Minnesotans give me, in turn making them feel culturally inferior in comparison. Which I don't want them to feel - this is my difficulty in living here and being myself, and wanting equal acceptance. As the other poster stated, it's hard to not feel guilty when you judge others hobbies, quirks, etc as soemthing your couldn't do, especially when they are so nice and have no intentions to harm.

For example, burping out loud and giving each other a high-five for it's loudness, is quite frankly something that I and my countryfolk wouldn't do. So I judge naturally, and refrain from condoning by not joining in the contest or high-fiving, and just smile. So explain to me, how do you acft yourself and still somehow not judge others?


Ah, yes there are many who would, even Europeans who act as passive-aggressively (actually they'd be direct and more overt - you can spot the enemy quickly). I just haven't encountered it as much or commonplace in so many areas of life before.

I don't know where you are hanging out that you are around Minnesotans that are burping and high-fiving each other and making fun of accents? Sports bars? Most Minnesotans I have had contact with like accents. We have a high percentage of foreign language speakers here.

I am well into my forties and have never seen random people making fun of accents, and the only thing approaching burping and celebrating it I've seen was when I was in college. Which can be expected of drunken frat boys in any US state. I am going to take some of these claims with a large dose of salt. Some of this stuff is really ringing hollow. If they are mimicking you, and it bothers you, tell them, else you are dancing on the borderlines of passive-aggressiveness yourself. Furthermore, accent mimicking is certainly not a MN only thing. I have had my accent made fun of or mimicked in LA, NYC, TX, and watched German and Canadian relatives of mine do it to each other. I don't understand why you shot me down about finding nicer friends, then went on to complain about them to me. Additionally, when I am around my relatives from Georgia for a day or two, I start to talk like them (with a drawl) without even realizing it. Food for thought (though probably not applicable in your situation).

I marvel at the judgmental attitudes displayed here which paint others as judgmental.

What I think I see here is a backlash against the marketing of Minnesota (whether the backlashers are conscious of it or not). Every state and country does it - comes up with these goofy slogans like Minnesota Nice, but it certainly doesn't mean people here think they are better than people from elsewhere. All it means it that some marketing firm got their fingers into the pie.

Let me ask - how is it that you know that these people you're interacting with are having feelings of inferiority? Are you assuming or have they expressed this? Sounds rather haughty to be honest, assuming a local culture feels inferior to you because of wheres your homeland happens to be. "Oh I am English, they must be intimidated by that!" Groan. In fact, that assumption sounds rather provincial, in and of itself. "People from my home country would never..." further reinforces your own provincial tendencies. Yeah, I'm sure soccer hoodlums would never burp and celebrate it!. Double groan.

I am going to bow out of this. This "People from here are like 'this'." stuff isn't even worth bandying about; it's so rooted in fear and the past, and such an obvious attempt to scapegoat on others because of personal unhappiness. I've seen this happen on other forums too. Likely homesick individuals finding some refuge in the tearing down of their current host community.

It's a shame.

[kim825]

Hilarious. Guero just proves the point. Typical Liberal Minnesotan lines. There is no chance of taking responsbility and actually accepting that this place/people might be less than perfect, so instead just throw it on others -- it's our fault, we are just unhappy. blah blah blah.......
unreal. no I don't NEED to move home and I'm not homesick (although it would be an upgrade to living here.) We are actually doing a NATION wide search excluding CA, FL and MN!!!! I'm perfectly happy and not in fear or living in the past. I know liberals get scared when someone says this but I'm happy (just don't like MN!!) By the way, I certainly wouldn't say I've felt "hosted" in MN......get a grip. This state is way to full of itself

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by kim825

Hilarious. Guero just proves the point. Typical Liberal Minnesotan lines. There is no chance of taking responsbility and actually accepting that this place/people might be less than perfect, so instead just throw it on others -- it's our fault, we are just unhappy. blah blah blah.......
unreal. no I don't NEED to move home and I'm not homesick (although it would be an upgrade to living here.) We are actually doing a NATION wide search excluding CA, FL and MN!!!! I'm perfectly happy and not in fear or living in the past. I know liberals get scared when someone says this but I'm happy (just don't like MN!!) By the way, I certainly wouldn't say I've felt "hosted" in MN......get a grip. This state is way to full of itself

Are you the same Kim that said this?

Originally Posted by kim825
But now that we live in Lakeville I finally feel like I'm in a small welcoming community and I actually love it here. Even though it's a larger suburb the southern part and downtown feel like a small town. Parks, schools, services, shopping and now a new Lifetime fitness. It's tremendous here. Not to mention that it's been ranked among the top 4 places to raise a family in various reports.
I just wanted to share that a former unhappy Shakopee resident is thrilled to be in Lakeville. Good luck

*laffin* It honestly might help if you'd get over tossing out that 'liberal' thing like it was a bad word or something though.

[Guero]

Originally Posted by kim825

Hilarious. Guero just proves the point. Typical Liberal Minnesotan lines. There is no chance of taking responsbility and actually accepting that this place/people might be less than perfect, so instead just throw it on others -- it's our fault, we are just unhappy. blah blah blah.......
unreal. no I don't NEED to move home and I'm not homesick (although it would be an upgrade to living here.) We are actually doing a NATION wide search excluding CA, FL and MN!!!! I'm perfectly happy and not in fear or living in the past. I know liberals get scared when someone says this but I'm happy (just don't like MN!!) By the way, I certainly wouldn't say I've felt "hosted" in MN......get a grip. This state is way to full of itself

And more assumptions. I'm liberal now? Well thanks for letting me know!

No one is saying MN is "perfect". That's a straw man argument.

Those are your words. I haven't said anything about MN being anything other than not unlike any other place, in that it has jerks, nice people, and all those in between. I haven't seen anyone else but those who are determined to paint the entire state in a bad light say that MN thought it was perfect.

I've lived all over this country, Canada and various places in Europe. Minnesota doesn't have the market cornered on rudeness, provincial, or local pride. Not by any stretch, and some of the comments in this thread are really good examples which bear that out.

Someone needs to get a grip alright - those who would pigeonhole entire groups of people with nary an afterthought. That to me is so much worse than some perceived or real provincial. In fact, it's downright immature.

I'd imagine that MN is not your first or last victim either. Oh but wait! YOU are the "victim" here right?

Yes. I am sure you're not unhappy. *covers laugh*. I mean you only SAID you were a formerly unhappy Shakopee resident right? And you're still apparently not happy here, you're banging on the locals still and you are looking for some place else to move. But yeah, I am so full of myself and not taking responsibility for pointing out your own words and actions which any rational person might interpret as unhappiness. People stereotype and complain at length because they are happy, right?

I have noticed that Kim is avoiding my point about calling people judgmental and then getting up in her own pulpit and JUDGING. Why is that OK? Does that mean that everyone where you are from are so judgmental? Would that be right for me to assume? No. It wouldn't.

Have fun with that, you'll not be welcomed in most places I would think, with such a hostility, and with such an inferiority complex which causes you to lash out like this.

[Guero]

Originally Posted by Auntie Bob

Are you the same Kim that said this?

Originally Posted by kim825
But now that we live in Lakeville I finally feel like I'm in a small welcoming community and I actually love it here. Even though it's a larger suburb the southern part and downtown feel like a small town. Parks, schools, services, shopping and now a new Lifetime fitness. It's tremendous here. Not to mention that it's been ranked among the top 4 places to raise a family in various reports.
I just wanted to share that a former unhappy Shakopee resident is thrilled to be in Lakeville. Good luck

*laffin* It honestly might help if you'd get over tossing out that 'liberal' thing like it was a bad word or something though.

She also said:

Originally Posted by kim825

I'm from Western PA and there isn't any place I've been with friendlier, down to earth, helpful caring people than there.

And then went on to accuse Minnesotans of the same thing. This is the most revealing statement, by the way. It exposes Kim as being hypocritically guilty of thinking her original home is better than "...any place...", so apparently, if she smells any measure of community pride elsewhere, that poses a challenge to her own self-imagined Western PA superiority.

How can one argue with that logic?

[Auntie Bob]

Originally Posted by Guero

How can one argue with that logic?

Well, it's been my experience that people generally get back what they put out. But, I'm old and judgemental so, I could be wrong.

Two theories have worked pretty well in my life.

1. People are as happy as they make up their mind to be.

2. Bloom where you are planted.

And people need a reality check on what Minnesota Nice is. Minnesota Nice is...when you show off your new $200 boots, we prolly won't say "dayum, those are butt ugly". At least not to your face.
To me, Minnesota Nice means we'll try pretty hard not to offend you. But, there are limits to everything.

[Guero]

Originally Posted by Auntie Bob

Well, it's been my experience that people generally get back what they put out.

You're right I suppose, which is probably why I am dishing out the grumpiness tonight.



As for the rest of what you said, I agree. Good words to live by.

And, as I said, above and didn't hold myself to - time to bow out.

I doubt I'll be changing Kim's mind about MN, or FL, or CA, or.... (you can probably insert the name of the next state she moves to here )...