1 out of every 5 Minnesota blacks is unemployed, why is that? (Minneapolis: crime, neighborhood)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

How offensive. There are plenty of people out there who "want" to work. I agree that discrimination on the part of hiring managers is probably not the problem; the bigger issue is that there is a similarly large racial education gap in the Twin Cities (including a much larger dropout rate among black teens than white teens) which inevitably leads to economic disparities. There's also been much written about issues like access to jobs, that sort of thing, and that disproportionately impacts lower-income black residents.

Camden Northsider might weigh in here; he's had some great posts on this in the past (and works with these issues for a living, so is very current on the topic.)

Take it how you want, but if you CHOSE to drop out of high school, making yourself unemployable, why is that a hiring manager's fault? Again, it has nothing to do with the color of one's skin and everything to do with their internal motivation, period. The newspaper is free to read in the library, so is using the internet to find jobs. There are a LOT of jobs out there to be had...

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Take it how you want, but if you CHOSE to drop out of high school, making yourself unemployable, why is that a hiring manager's fault? Again, it has nothing to do with the color of one's skin and everything to do with their internal motivation, period. The newspaper is free to read in the library, so is using the internet to find jobs. There are a LOT of jobs out there to be had...

Written like someone who has had little experience working with people who haven't had the luxuries the rest of us take for granted. I'm not suggesting that it's external (and current) discrimination that is leading to the education gap, but clearly there is more going on here than simply someone's "choice." It's easy to talk about "choice" when you live in a stable household with supportive parents in an environment where high school graduation is the norm. Some of this disparity may well result from "choices" made while still young, but many of the people involved didn't "choose" to be born into a life in which the deck was stacked against them from the start. I don't think most of that stems from current racist hiring practices, but certainly historical patterns of discrimination have played their role, and here in the Twin Cities the gap persists.

Our metro area's sprawl has also been cited as part of the problem; the "Mind the Gap" study done about five years ago suggested that the locations of jobs within the Twin Cities disproportionately impacted blacks more than whites.

As far as the "choice" thing goes, yes, I do think people have choices in life, and I do think that there are plenty of people who have made poor decisions. But it's not fair to ignore the reality that people are not starting out with equal opportunities or circumstances, and we as a region are not doing ourselves any good if we just blow off the problem as being the results of individual choices, good or bad.

[west336]

I'm finding out that a LOT of the problems African Americans have with school, especially in the inner city, is that the parents are not doing enough to help/encourage/support their kids' education. At the end of the day, you can have all the money for your schools, teachers, etc. and have amazing opportunity to exceed, but if the family dynamic at home is not education-oriented your struggles may very well mimic that of the parents. This is a problem money can't solve, but inner city public schools still need more funds, less students per classroom, and teachers need to get paid respectedly so all kids of all nationalities, ethnicities, races, sexes, economic statuses, etc. have a fighting chance.

[briansol]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Take it how you want, but if you CHOSE to drop out of high school, making yourself unemployable, why is that a hiring manager's fault? Again, it has nothing to do with the color of one's skin and everything to do with their internal motivation, period. The newspaper is free to read in the library, so is using the internet to find jobs. There are a LOT of jobs out there to be had...

Quoted for truth.


Motivation and the whole 'why bother? i'll just collect welfare' attitude is a HUGE problem, and not just here... it's nationwide.

Because we won't let anyone fail (by way of welfare and foodstamps and section8 and all the other entitlements) and those brought up on it are far less likely to want to try to get away from it. They just go 'meh, it will be there, so why bother?'.


You can't take it away, because then all our car radios get stolen and our wives get mugged. [sic]

How do you change the mindset of a person who stopped trying at age 8?



Much like what Ryan is talking about with SS, grant it for what is available now and needs it, but cut it at a certain date so that those know it will be cut (ie, under 40 for SS have 25 years to save for retirement) and along the same lines, kids born today on (for example) will not have access to welfare any more. It simply won't exist. Within 2 generations, it will literally die out.

Perhaps it's extreme, but if you don't dangle the carrot in front of the turtle, it won't move.

[briansol]

Originally Posted by west336

I'm finding out that a LOT of the problems African Americans have with school, especially in the inner city, is that the parents are not doing enough to help/encourage/support their kids' education. At the end of the day, you can have all the money for your schools, teachers, etc. and have amazing opportunity to exceed, but if the family dynamic at home is not education-oriented your struggles may very well mimic that of the parents. This is a problem money can't solve, but inner city public schools still need more funds, less students per classroom, and teachers need to get paid respectedly so all kids of all nationalities, ethnicities, races, sexes, economic statuses, etc. have a fighting chance.

This comes down to budgets.

And since no one with money will live in the ghetto/low income areas, you end up with a school district that has no money based on tax income.

Redraw the lines and watch the rich pull their kids out and send them to private schools....

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by briansol

This comes down to budgets.

And since no one with money will live in the ghetto/low income areas, you end up with a school district that has no money based on tax income.

Redraw the lines and watch the rich pull their kids out and send them to private schools....

Except that the Minneapolis schools have the highest per pupil spending in the state...

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by briansol

This comes down to budgets.

And since no one with money will live in the ghetto/low income areas, you end up with a school district that has no money based on tax income.

Redraw the lines and watch the rich pull their kids out and send them to private schools....

This actually doesn't work out that way in Minneapolis. There historically has been no "white flight" to the suburbs, and many middle class and wealthy families still choose to send their kids to MPS schools. We also have some of the best (and some of the worst) schools in the state. Not to mention that there is open enrollment and some busing programs, so no one need stay in MPS if they so choose. Around here, it's not a district-wide issue, but is far more concentrated on a local school level.

That said, yes, I agree that it does come down to budget, and think that it does take far more money to educate some kids than others. Not all children enter school with the same background, and some kids need a lot more help than others to get up to speed or to overcome whatever obstacles are at home.

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Originally Posted by briansol

Quoted for truth.


Motivation and the whole 'why bother? i'll just collect welfare' attitude is a HUGE problem, and not just here... it's nationwide.

Because we won't let anyone fail (by way of welfare and foodstamps and section8 and all the other entitlements) and those brought up on it are far less likely to want to try to get away from it. They just go 'meh, it will be there, so why bother?'.


You can't take it away, because then all our car radios get stolen and our wives get mugged. [sic]

How do you change the mindset of a person who stopped trying at age 8?



Much like what Ryan is talking about with SS, grant it for what is available now and needs it, but cut it at a certain date so that those know it will be cut (ie, under 40 for SS have 25 years to save for retirement) and along the same lines, kids born today on (for example) will not have access to welfare any more. It simply won't exist. Within 2 generations, it will literally die out.

Perhaps it's extreme, but if you don't dangle the carrot in front of the turtle, it won't move.

Right, I don't think anyone is arguing the societal issues that come into play here, but how do you explain the fact that Minnesota has a larger gap than other parts of the country?

[ckhthankgod]

Wow, I'm surprised that no one has touched on the refugee/immigrant aspect of this. Think about the Black population in the Twin Cities and even in other cities in the state. A relatively large portion of the Black community is made up of African refugees. So, the aspect of assimilation, coming to a country not because of choice and language barriers also come into play when looking at this issue. Even Asian refugees(that tend to largely come from SE Asian), have a hard time in regard to these aspects and SE Asians tend to be very poor economically and even have to deal with some of the social ills that many urban Black communities have to deal with. So, we can't forget about the makeup of the Black community in the state and how it is more complex than just the usual issues that African American specific communities have had to deal, which is also occurring in the Twin Cities.

I also think the gap has more to do with how educated the white population is there. Meaning, if you compare the education levels of Whites among the states, Minnesota will be way up there, if not at the top of the list. So, in essence, you are comparing very different experiences and circumstances.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Except that the Minneapolis schools have the highest per pupil spending in the state...

Similar to Atlanta in that regard. Atlanta spends more per student than most of its surrounding suburban communities, and yet APD schools tend to not do as well as those in the surrounding communities.

There is obviously some factor at work which isn't $$. My own suspicion is that family support for students is a large factor, but that's largely anecdotal on my part.