Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Many of you have obviously never been to the Mayo and experienced how they operate. They have you show up on day 1 at 7:00 am to meet with an admitting physician--that specialty depends on your main area of complaint. Then they confer with a team and develop a schedule of exams, lab test, etc. You are handed a schedule that may look something like this:
Monday-12:30--ENT
Monday 4:00--GI
Tuesday-7:00 Lab Work
Tuesday 9:00am CT Scan
Wed 10:00 am--ENT
Wed 5:00-Cardiologist
Thursday 4:00 Stress Test
Friday 8:00am Internist
Monday 11:00am-team meeting to discuss findings
Treatment plan to follow
That is a LOT of sitting around with nothing to do. Most people are there for at least a week if not more. Most people have at least one family member along, usually more. There is a mall connected to the clinic but it's pretty small. Parking is charged with each coming and going, you can buy a weekly pass though. You don't want to leave after you get there though or you won't find a spot in the ramp. If you take a shuttle, you have limited options for transportation to get to the larger mall or out of the general clinic area.
Walk around the clinic. There is a LOT of wealth coming for treatments and a $250 sweater would not be good enough. It's not Minnesota, it's the Mayo clinic. Sure, there are plenty of people that are not wealthy but enough are that having high end shopping makes sense, especially when they are competing with Johns Hopkins and all the DC area has to offer.
I grew up in Rochester and visit a handful of times per year. I have many friends, friends' parents (or retired from Mayo) even some family who work at Mayo. Sorry, but I'm VERY familiar with both the Mayo Clinic and Rochester as a whole.
At the same time, I'm writing this to you as someone who is very familiar with the upscale shopping industry. I am not only a consumer of it, but I have many friends in the industry both at the retail level, at the designer level, and the administrative level of some companies.
I don't doubt there would be *some* people visiting or living in Rochester who can afford the stuff. That's not the question or point. The question is "why buy in Rochester?" If I am even in Rochester for one month on a visit, is there any reason why I would. I can think of three reasons.
(1) 0% sales tax on clothing in Minnesota
(2) Distraction from what is going on.
(3) I need something high end *right now*
#1 is obviously the best reason to do it. I'm sure there would be the distraction phase, but in reality the percentage that does that type of thing is low. There is a difference between a purchaser and a window shopper. In reality, this is not enough to lure actual high end producers to Rochester in the first place. Even if there are 1 million visitors to Rochester per year, and 0.5% of them show interest in buying high end clothing (5,000 people). Now pretend every single one of these 5,000 people per year purchase $1000 worth of new clothing in Rochester on average, then that's $5 million in revenue from that per year. Not bad, right. Really though, the amount of people who shop on distraction is fairly minimal. There is almost no reason why I would go shop in Rochester for a new Prada coat versus my store in Chicago other than to save $100 by having no sales tax. It's not a question of whether people have money or not. it's a question of "why here?" in the first place. If I'm there for a week, chances are I'm not in some huge rush to buy.
The bigger market of shopping would be those international patients who pay double the price for X in their home countries versus the US. They would be the better use case of this all, no sales tax or sales tax in effect.
Now compare that with the restaurant and entertainment industry. If right now 75% of these visitors (750,000) eat out every day to a tune of $15, and you increase the offerings so now the average person spends $25 per day, you have just increased revenue by $7.5 million only by allowing for more options in town (which many, many people would take). Pretend now that these expanded options mean 10% of the city who doesn't go out much, goes out twice per month now. Let's say at a population of 150,000 this is 15,000 people. If they too spend an average of $30 twice per month per person, you've just increased revenue by another $10.8 million.
Here's the other point. By expanding the restaurant/entertainment industry, you create more jobs for the city. Most high end luxury stores are not very well manned. At most high end boutiques, you do not need more than 10 workers at each. If you expand restaurants and entertainment options, it creates more jobs in this industry, but also higher wage ones (higher tips for the waiters and waitresses as well).
I am not saying either to not add shopping at all. I think you should, but high end shopping at this point is not going to garner much attention from the shops wanting to come to Rochester. However, you can easily bring it down a notch with some higher end than what's massively available in Rochester with intermediate designers who would be willing to open up places in Rochester (i.e. H&M or even Zara). In that case, you have a broader audience (especially those of whom are from surrounding communities who have no problem paying a low price for a few H&M articles.) and you can increase revenue easier.
Even if you agreed to get a true high end retailer in Rochester, chances are they wouldn't want to go there. It's the reality of it. There are VERY VERY few small areas of the world where a city the size of Rochester or smaller has high end retail in it. One is Monaco (i.e. Monte Carlo), which is basically a vacation playground for millionaires and billionaires. Or they are larger areas with large travel hubs (i.e. Abu Dhabi, UAE with a population of over 600,000 now) full of millionaires.
Even if you have high end shopping, the shopping is an event. I feel luckily enough to be surrounded by all of this where I am currently at, but the reality is that most people do not just go shopping for nice things and then go home and do nothing. Many of them either drop their stuff off at home or their hotels and go out to a bar/lounge/restaurant/cafe or they just plain go straight out from there. Not only is it a wind down from having done the shopping exercise, but it's also a "be seen" activity with your new Prada or whatever you have it bag.
Focus on more middle class shopping with a few high end (whatever you can lure there), and more entertainment/restaurant options and you will see a lot more economic growth that way.
I grew up in Rochester and visit a handful of times per year. I have many friends, friends' parents (or retired from Mayo) even some family who work at Mayo. Sorry, but I'm VERY familiar with both the Mayo Clinic and Rochester as a whole.
At the same time, I'm writing this to you as someone who is very familiar with the upscale shopping industry. I am not only a consumer of it, but I have many friends in the industry both at the retail level, at the designer level, and the administrative level of some companies.
I don't doubt there would be *some* people visiting or living in Rochester who can afford the stuff. That's not the question or point. The question is "why buy in Rochester?" If I am even in Rochester for one month on a visit, is there any reason why I would. I can think of three reasons.
(1) 0% sales tax on clothing in Minnesota
(2) Distraction from what is going on.
(3) I need something high end *right now*
#1 is obviously the best reason to do it. I'm sure there would be the distraction phase, but in reality the percentage that does that type of thing is low. There is a difference between a purchaser and a window shopper. In reality, this is not enough to lure actual high end producers to Rochester in the first place. Even if there are 1 million visitors to Rochester per year, and 0.5% of them show interest in buying high end clothing (5,000 people). Now pretend every single one of these 5,000 people per year purchase $1000 worth of new clothing in Rochester on average, then that's $5 million in revenue from that per year. Not bad, right. Really though, the amount of people who shop on distraction is fairly minimal. There is almost no reason why I would go shop in Rochester for a new Prada coat versus my store in Chicago other than to save $100 by having no sales tax. It's not a question of whether people have money or not. it's a question of "why here?" in the first place. If I'm there for a week, chances are I'm not in some huge rush to buy.
The bigger market of shopping would be those international patients who pay double the price for X in their home countries versus the US. They would be the better use case of this all, no sales tax or sales tax in effect.
Now compare that with the restaurant and entertainment industry. If right now 75% of these visitors (750,000) eat out every day to a tune of $15, and you increase the offerings so now the average person spends $25 per day, you have just increased revenue by $7.5 million only by allowing for more options in town (which many, many people would take). Pretend now that these expanded options mean 10% of the city who doesn't go out much, goes out twice per month now. Let's say at a population of 150,000 this is 15,000 people. If they too spend an average of $30 twice per month per person, you've just increased revenue by another $10.8 million.
Here's the other point. By expanding the restaurant/entertainment industry, you create more jobs for the city. Most high end luxury stores are not very well manned. At most high end boutiques, you do not need more than 10 workers at each. If you expand restaurants and entertainment options, it creates more jobs in this industry, but also higher wage ones (higher tips for the waiters and waitresses as well).
I am not saying either to not add shopping at all. I think you should, but high end shopping at this point is not going to garner much attention from the shops wanting to come to Rochester. However, you can easily bring it down a notch with some higher end than what's massively available in Rochester with intermediate designers who would be willing to open up places in Rochester (i.e. H&M or even Zara). In that case, you have a broader audience (especially those of whom are from surrounding communities who have no problem paying a low price for a few H&M articles.) and you can increase revenue easier.
Even if you agreed to get a true high end retailer in Rochester, chances are they wouldn't want to go there. It's the reality of it. There are VERY VERY few small areas of the world where a city the size of Rochester or smaller has high end retail in it. One is Monaco (i.e. Monte Carlo), which is basically a vacation playground for millionaires and billionaires. Or they are larger areas with large travel hubs (i.e. Abu Dhabi, UAE with a population of over 600,000 now) full of millionaires.
Focus on more middle class shopping with a few high end (whatever you can lure there), and more entertainment/restaurant options and you will see a lot more economic growth that way.
And it's those millionaires that travel to Mayo for medical treatment, among others from Arab nations....
It's not like EVERYTHING they want is high end shopping. That is just one small part of what they want to do. It's a niche market, yes, but Rochester is unique in the people it attracts and high end shopping is something many of the people that do come to Rochester will appreciate even if the "natives" don't.
I just don't see how this is a bad thing for anyone. Seems like it's a win-win for the entire state. They are asking for funding for roads, maybe a light rail and then are fronting the cost for everything else....
But really, how many people choose their hospital of choice (as a patient, that is) because of the proximity of high-end shopping?! Very few, I'd expect. We were referred to either the Mayo or the U of MN (just by chance that these happen to be in MN -- we were referred by a doctor in a different state, and location was not part of the equation. MN is lucky to have two such major medical institutions!) and while researching our options and talking to a lot of other people who are making similar choices, believe me, no one is evaluating the availability of luxury retail. Or, for that matter, even good dining options. Having stuff to do and a nice medical campus makes the experience more enjoyable while you're there, but that's all icing on the cake after the medical decisions have been made. Some people have financial considerations (not only wealthy Arab families have medical crises, after all!) and I think Mayo is also pretty good on that front. But if you need a specialized medical procedure or specialized expert advice, you go where you can get it.
I think overall it makes a lot of sense to work to support the Mayo's expansion hopes. I just think the high-end retail question is less important. I don't see that as compelling, or something that will make any real difference for Rochester or for the state. It's certainly not nearly as important as most of the other elements.
But really, how many people choose their hospital of choice (as a patient, that is) because of the proximity of high-end shopping?! Very few, I'd expect. We were referred to either the Mayo or the U of MN (just by chance that these happen to be in MN -- we were referred by a doctor in a different state, and location was not part of the equation. MN is lucky to have two such major medical institutions!) and while researching our options and talking to a lot of other people who are making similar choices, believe me, no one is evaluating the availability of luxury retail. Or, for that matter, even good dining options. Having stuff to do and a nice medical campus makes the experience more enjoyable while you're there, but that's all icing on the cake after the medical decisions have been made. Some people have financial considerations (not only wealthy Arab families have medical crises, after all!) and I think Mayo is also pretty good on that front. But if you need a specialized medical procedure or specialized expert advice, you go where you can get it.
I think overall it makes a lot of sense to work to support the Mayo's expansion hopes. I just think the high-end retail question is less important. I don't see that as compelling, or something that will make any real difference for Rochester or for the state. It's certainly not nearly as important as most of the other elements.
Not just shopping but things to do in general. Don't go off on ONE tangent of this project. It's a small portion of what they want to do. The U of MN isn't Mayo's competition in the world, Johns Hopkins is---DC has plenty to keep people busy and they do take advantage of it.....yes, some people will chose the DC are over Rochester because there is more to do in the down time there. I clearly said that not everyone is a wealthy Arab that goes there but that is the target market for the high end shopping whether you choose to believe it or not is irrelevant. Like I said, go walk around the hallways at Mayo and see who is there. This development is NOT just high end shopping but things for ALL patients and families that visit......
Also, looking at the press release from the Mayo clinic--there is NO mention of high end shopping in their plan.....but projections of an additional $45 BILLION/YEAR into the MN Economy--for a small investment of $500 million by the state--I'd take that Rate of Return ANY day....
Actually, U of MN is Mayo's competition for some things. People choose their medical destinations based on where they can get the best care for their specific need. We were at Stanford; Johns Hopkins was another option, but it wasn't as good -- for our needs -- as U of MN. And believe me, wander around the right floor at the U of MN campus and you'll see plenty of international visitors. Again, you go where you can get the best medical care and expertise for your specific needs. And for some things, U of MN is at the top of its field. For other things, a lot of things, the Mayo is the place to go. And no one in their right mind chooses their medical destination because of fluff amenities.
If you're not interested in the discussion about retail -- a small part, certainly, but someone DID bring it up, and apparently some people found it interesting to discuss -- you could always just skim those posts.
And it's those millionaires that travel to Mayo for medical treatment, among others from Arab nations....
It's not like EVERYTHING they want is high end shopping. That is just one small part of what they want to do. It's a niche market, yes, but Rochester is unique in the people it attracts and high end shopping is something many of the people that do come to Rochester will appreciate even if the "natives" don't.
I just don't see how this is a bad thing for anyone. Seems like it's a win-win for the entire state. They are asking for funding for roads, maybe a light rail and then are fronting the cost for everything else....
First of all, I'm not saying it's bad for anybody. If done right, it can be amazing for all parties. This type of news greatly excites me as someone who grew up in Rochester and as someone whose parents, brother, sister, nieces, and nephews still live in Rochester.
What I am saying is that completely focusing on high end shopping is not going to account for as much economic growth as a varied amount of economic opportunities covering multiple classes. I agree that trying to add SOME high end shopping will bring in more revenue (IF you can get them to Rochester, which will be the single hardest hurdle depending on what designers you go after).
The impression I get from what I have read and heard is that Mayo is placing too many of their eggs into the "high end shopping" basket and not enough into the "diversified shopping and entertainment" basket. There are other ways to promote new shopping, fashion, style, etc other than cater 100% to a high end boutique or shop. Not all people who are upscale shoppers ALWAYS shop at upscale boutiques. For example, my friend here has a countless number of articles of clothing from Burberry, Dior, Varvatos, etc. However, he also has clothing from H&M and Zara which are completely lower, but are more fashion forward than your typical American Eagle type of brands.
If you are going to focus on this, you do not want a rodeo drive in Rochester. By diversifying the shopping options one has, you not only can allow a high end patient/visitor/resident to get what they want, but you can allow people of other wants and fashion to get what they want as well. By doing this, you are allowing more shopping options to everyone involved (patients, residents, or visitors) and thus, not only are you creating more jobs, but you are creating more revenue, and economic growth in the area. Especially if Mayo adds 45,000 new jobs and let's say that's close to 30,000-45,000 "other people" not newly employed by Mayo, they will need jobs too. Some of them will be able to get jobs at these types of places. If you did attract higher end shopping boutiques, chances are they would not be hiring much locally. They would most likely be bringing in employees from other areas since they are looking for people with existing high end retail experience.
Along with this is the point about restaurant and entertainment. You can build all the upscale shopping you want, but it is not going to do anything to increase the livability of your city. If you want to attract new blood to a small city such as Rochester just to work there, you want to be able to offer "things to do." Don't get me wrong, Rochester has that, but Rochester is still not a very "fun" city and for a city with 1 million visitors per year, it can vastly improve upon this. There are some bars, some decent to good places to eat, but there's not a ton of it. There are many people from many areas who might look at Rochester as a snoozefest and be apprehensive to even take it. However, if 25% of these people are single and you show that Rochester now has a pretty vibrant downtown scene, they might be more apt to live there.
But with this point comes an even greater one. Everyone needs to eat. Everyone. There's no exceptions. There is a VERY HIGH likelihood that if you are in town visiting, you will not be cooking for yourself. You might buy yourself breakfast food, but at the end of the day you will be eating out at least once a day. The high end crowd that Mayo seems to be catering much of this growth to eat out all the time. They have absolutely no problem putting up $50+ for a dinner per person if it's a good meal (pretty cheap for a nice, great place with drinks in reality). Sure, they might shop once in a week and buy a $400 sweater let's say, but think about if they are there for 8 days with their spouse at $30/person. You've doubled what they spent on the high end shopping and then some.
Only putting high end shopping there is not going to increase the livability or culture of the city. It might create more revenue, but it is not going to add anything to the city to attract new blood to the city in the first place, or get more people out of their homes every month or week. I have a street right near me here called Oak Street. There are designers such as Hermes, Prada, Gucci, Jimmy Choo, etc on this street. The street is not lively. It does not add any sort of culture apart from what *some* people are wearing on the street. What adds culture and liveliness in the area are the more social places such as restaurants, bars, live music lounges, public spaces which promote conversation, etc. These types of things are greatly needed. Shopping will not bring the city to the next level necessarily. You need what I've mentioned above to do that.
Also, looking at the press release from the Mayo clinic--there is NO mention of high end shopping in their plan.....but projections of an additional $45 BILLION/YEAR into the MN Economy--for a small investment of $500 million by the state--I'd take that Rate of Return ANY day....
The idea is to transform Rochester into a world-class city with upscale shopping, hotels and housing, as Mayo works to preserve its role as a global destination for medical care. "We want to defend our turf and grow,"
It's an amazing return on investment, although does it say how they came up with that projection? $45 billion/year seems rather lofty for just the state. I could see how that could translate into Mayo itself, but the state? Seems a little high, but certainly possible.
But really, how many people choose their hospital of choice (as a patient, that is) because of the proximity of high-end shopping?! Very few, I'd expect.
It is very few. There are many people out there, fairly rich individuals, who do not like staying at anything less than 5 or 4.5 star (sometimes 4 star) hotels wherever they travel. For others, if they are used to this treatment and have to stay at a Hilton, it's not the end of the world for them. Believe me on this. There is a big difference between staying at a Motel 6 and having to stay at the Hilton.
This is one of the reasons I am talking about expanding the restaurant/entertainment scene. Everybody, rich or poor, sick or in good health, has to eat. If you are visiting a city, chances are you WILL be eating out (unless you are there for 1+ months at a time, then you will probably not be eating out as much, but I'm sure you will be sometimes). You will not necessarily *always* be looking to stay in the nicest 5 star hotel or shopping at Prada wherever you go. The amount of people who are like this is very small. Obviously you have to expand the hotel offerings and build a few even nicer ones than what's out there right now (Except those secret expensive Mayo apartments), but if you want to grow Rochester, you have to focus on a lot more than that.
These things are just a very small portion of what is needed to promote healthy growth of a city. In the end, if Mayo adds 45,000 jobs or what not, you will need new jobs outside of Mayo to not only support the jobs required of these new family members, but in general other services to meet the demand of the influx of so many people in a short period of time. Think about the entire system of the economy. It spreads into a lot of other areas. If Mayo adds this many jobs successfully, Rochester will probably more than double its population and the current overall system cannot probably handle this in the majority of its subsystems.
No, they want their millionaire patients to spend their money in Rochester while getting medical treatments for themselves or their family members. Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.
For them, sure. Just like a stadium made so much sense for Wilf. But for the state? Why should people in Duluth or Moorhead care where upscale shoppers spend their money? And $6 billion for such a project? Maybe they should go to the Fed for the easy money it is pumping into the economy. I rank this with U of M's request given the sloppy budgeting that seems to rule in that institution. Basically it is the politics of outstretched hands. This is the part of government spending that Romney seemed oblivious to.
Another problem is that barring the tax on clothing is removed (crossing my fingers that it doesn't in any form, but it'll be iffy), any high-end boutique is going to be paying no sales tax and employ very few people. At least a place like H&M will hire many people and be accessible to the middle-class of the city. I'm not particularly concerned with investing in something if the only beneficiary is the rich (just as the Vikings stadium will only show value if it brings development to the Downtown East area that is accessible to people).
Restaurants are probably the best ROI for the state in terms of commercial development. I can't comment specifically, but with the extra taxes they bring in (state, local, special restaurant taxes), I assume this pays off more and opens the doors for better options for Rochester residents.
Really I'd like this project to be a specifically infrastructure-related investment. Improve roads, boost transit service (preferably bus, BRT, or streetcar depending on needs), and get the high-speed rail from the Twin Cities to Rochester growing (that will hopefully eventually connect to Chicago). Maybe even give Mayo some money through TIF. But really, we shouldn't even be debating how to lure high-end shopping. They'll come when they know they can make money. Clearly at this point they don't think that's the case.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
