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Old 01-28-2008, 01:50 PM
 
32 posts, read 101,032 times
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Absolutely. Lived there for 20 years and convinced that "Minnesota Nice" = "passive agressive."

 
Old 01-28-2008, 02:08 PM
 
14,727 posts, read 33,287,895 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastle View Post
Minnesota nice also means that people will be nice to your face and rude behind your back, people will not confront you if there is a problem, and people will think that you confronting them is rude. Confrontation avoidance.

Minnesota nice does mean people will generally help you out if you are in need.
Arrgggh. I just stumbled onto this thread.

I'm a Californian that has lived in the Pacific NW and ATL, as well as spending some time in the Northeast near NYC. The Pacific Northwest, particuarly Seattle, is ruined by Minnesota niceness because there is a pipeline between those 2 places. When in Seattle, the only people I could mesh with were other Californians and Northeasterners for how real they were.

I can tell you that "Minnesota Nice," as explained to me, is a negative thing.

It is anthropoligically tied to the area's Scandinavian heritage...that is, polite, neutral and yes, even helpful, because both areas have difficulties with the elements. On the other hand, it means conflict-avoidance, a lack of real intimacy and, at its worst, even passive-aggressiveness.

I knew of an attractive and intelligent husband and wife MBA couple who moved to Twin Cities. They are from the lower/central Midwest and GENUINELY NICE...they are the kind of people for whom friends are family...and quickly. They moved there to take jobs and, three years later, they moved back to where they came from, citing the polite veneer but the underlying aloofness.

Please don't bash Northeasterners. They have to be somewhat careful for survival (high density, high crime) but they can be the salt of the earth, too, with their directness. I will never forget once when sitting at a restaurant in coastal Florida asking for bread with my spaghetti, I found out it was extra, so I declined. The lady next to me, Italian or Jewish, from the Northeast turned to me in her animated accent, could have been my Mom, and offered me her bread basket..."Please, I wasn't going to have it all. I didn't touch it, so have some. I sweaahh." (So funny, but so right there and so in-your-face). So when will some Scandinavian-American suburbanite from Twin Cities do that? Not too likely.

Last edited by robertpolyglot; 01-28-2008 at 03:32 PM..
 
Old 01-28-2008, 02:59 PM
 
284 posts, read 1,654,457 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avindair View Post
As I stated, those were facts, and what my wife, my son, and my daughter have all experienced.

Of course, these stories are anecdotal by their very nature. Nevertheless, they are absolutely spot-on true.
I meant I didn't know if my parents had any friendship stories similar to yours.

I was trying to show the commonalities in our experiences, but it appears that you did not interpret my act as one of kindness and an attempt to connect. Hmmm...

Based on our one interaction, I can see that your Minnesota experiences have made you quite sensitive. I'm sorry it has been negative and wish you well in your future home.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:32 PM
 
49 posts, read 99,957 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbeet View Post
I meant I didn't know if my parents had any friendship stories similar to yours.
Ah, that wasn't clear. If there was any hard feelings for my response, I apologize.

That being said, this offers an excellent example of cross-communication common to the local area. I'll go into that below.

...snip...

Quote:
Based on our one interaction, I can see that your Minnesota experiences have made you quite sensitive. I'm sorry it has been negative and wish you well in your future home.
First off, thanks for the well-wishes. They're appreciated.

Now, allow me to explain the cross-communication I mentioned above:

The phrase I responded to ( "I don't know about that...") is often used locally in a dismissive manner. For example: "He said he jumped forty cars with a moped? I don't know about that..."

This implication of disbelief in your original statement prompted my desire to respond.

Here's where it gets even more interesting: In an effort to keep communication flowing, I conceded that my stories were anecdotal by their very nature. This was my way of tipping my hat in order to offer a friendly connection with you.

The result? Despite both of us actually "reaching out", a gap was instead created. Not only was a connection not made, I was offered a polite send-off, with a comment that could be misconstrued as "passive-aggressive" ("... I can see that your Minnesota experiences have made you quite sensitive.").

(No, I didn't take it that way; I just wanted to point out that possible interpretation.)

No one is "wrong" here, of course. All this does is demonstrate a fundamental difference in communication methods between those native to the region, and those with different cultural backgrounds.

So, best of intentions on both sides, but cross-communications nonetheless. Ain't interpersonal relations grand?

Once again, thanks for the response.

Take care,

Avindair
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:32 PM
 
1,016 posts, read 3,030,108 times
Reputation: 679
I'm going start a broad brush manufacturing plant. From the looks of this thread, I stand to make millions. We might as well change the title of this thread to "Let's hack on Scandinavians".

A few posts back, somebody posted about how they lost an acquaintance because they said that people were more friendly in the South. This translates to: "People in the South are nicer than people from Minnesota. You are from Minnesota, so by extension, they are nicer than you."
In like manner, saying "I can't wait to retire to a warmer climate" translates to "I really can't wait to get out of this frozen hellhole".

Fortunately, robertpolyglot was kind enough to inform us that the scourge of "Minnesota Nice" has spread across the Upper Midwest to Seattle via a Scandinavian pipepline that, I'd imagine, is also used for shipping sandbakkler and lutefisk. The Germans, Polish, Dutch, Anglos, and Irish can all breathe a collective sigh of relief--it's apparently the fault of the lefse-eaters.

So, what are the fundamental issues with this culture? Apparently, it's off-putting enough for a few threads of numerous pages. I guess people have a hard time making new friends, or feeling like an insider or something? Is this from a lack of understanding the culture? Perhaps.

TravisW's primer on Scandinavian-American culture.

*Scandinavian Americans typically refrain from showing peaks and valleys of emotion. It's like cultural Wellbutrin. If you are too happy, it may come across as rubbing it in to somebody who hasn't been as fortunate as you. Crying is for children, deaths, and extremely painful injuries. It's alright to cry, but please do it somewhere that I'm not, because it makes me really uncomfortable.

*Scandinavian Americans often don't have any sort of bridge between "I don't know about that" (I disagree), and "Go to Hell".

*Scandinavian Americans will usually be nice, even helpful to you, but that has nothing to do with friendship or the assumption of friendship. Two neighbors may have disliked each other for the previous 40 years, but they'll still pull each other out of the ditch.

*There is a gulf between being acquaintances and being friends. You may know somebody for 20 years, have spent many hours visiting with them in a particular context, but that does not constitute a friendship. That gulf can be closed, but it typically takes a fairly long time. Scandinavian Americans often make poor social gadflies, and don't typically have (or want) a large group of close friends.

*Scandinavian-Americans have very sensitive arrogance-meters. A cardinal sin is to speak as though you are particularly good at something (I'm a good singer; I'm an award-winning playwright), are more well-educated, or know more than others. This comes across as somewhat condescending.

*There are always exceptions to the rule. There are a lot of exceptions to these so-called rules. There are many gregarious Scandinavian-Americans, some who are somewhat emotional, etc.

Finally, the things that people like about living in the Upper Midwest: relatively low crime, clean towns, and quality education are largely the result of the "cold, aloof" population of these areas.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:46 PM
 
284 posts, read 1,654,457 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avindair View Post
This implication of disbelief in your original statement prompted my desire to respond.
Whoa! Seems like you didn't read my post at all. You just assumed I was being sarcastic, passive-aggressive, whatever it is you expect from Minnesotans, despite the fact that my story supported yours completely.

As a student of linguistics, I will say that there is some blame to be put on the perceived tone of words. Particularly when one is looking for a negative undertone.

To help you put me in perspective, I just moved back to Minnesota after living in five different states (all lengthly plane rides from here...not adjacent or midwestern) over the past 10 years. And I lived in an adjacent state for seven years prior to that. In essence I spent my entire adulthood thus far (age 18 on) in other states, mostly outside the midwest. As such, I think I have a fairly good and objective view on Minnesotans versus those in other parts of the country.

Oh, and my well wishes to you in your new location were quite sincere. There are many wonderful places to live in the US and it seems you have already lived in some of them prior to Minnesota.

While I'm sure you already know this, I will share for all one lesson I learned while living all over the country: what you expect from people and places is generally what you will get.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:52 PM
 
14,727 posts, read 33,287,895 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisW View Post
Fortunately, robertpolyglot was kind enough to inform us that the scourge of "Minnesota Nice" has spread across the Upper Midwest to Seattle via a Scandinavian pipepline

So, what are the fundamental issues with this culture? Apparently, it's off-putting enough for a few threads of numerous pages.

TravisW's primer on Scandinavian-American culture.

*There are always exceptions to the rule. There are a lot of exceptions to these so-called rules. There are many gregarious Scandinavian-Americans, some who are somewhat emotional, etc.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

My father was a Sicilian immigrant, initially to the NYC suburbs and then onto LA. I credit that heritage and the fortune/misfortune of being a product of LA (with a deep understaning of NYC, LOL) for the way that I am today. That means, I can laugh, I can cry (but limit that because of the gender thing), I can strike up a conversation with anyone, I tell my friends my problems and expect to help them with theirs, I will express my pleasure when I win something or get a good grade and express my displeasure when I don't do well, and on and on. You get the idea.

My father, in pointing out things about our various neighbors growing up in LA, made a comment about some Scandinavian neighbors who were nice but real vanilla to the point that he couldn't warm up to them. Basically, he said something like 'people from that part of the world, they're just not like us.' Etched in my brain forever. In our home, you were invited in right away and expected to stay for dinner. It didn't take long if you passed the "sniff test" that you were genuine. It took a rather serious betrayal to lose our family's trust.

When I lived in Seattle, I worked in a small company. My display of emotion (not that much, really), sense of humor, creation of nicknames, personality and impersonations of at least 10 different regional or ethnic accents were not well received (well, gee, if one speaks a couple of languages, their ear might be trained). I was told that "Seattle is liberal and you really don't fit in." Isn't that great? Some of the transplants liked my humor, though, and I stress transplants. In California, my co-workers would howl laughing at the stuff I came up with.

And, in all fairness to stereotypes, I have met people of Scandinavian lineage that are fun and easy to get to know. They are few. And they've generally been products of or have assimilated to the Sunbelt.

I used to downplay my Mediterranean heritage because I look more Anglo than the typical Southern European. Now I am fiercely proud of it because of the factors mentioned above.

Last edited by robertpolyglot; 01-28-2008 at 04:01 PM..
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:53 PM
 
49 posts, read 99,957 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisW View Post
I'm going start a broad brush manufacturing plant. From the looks of this thread, I stand to make millions. We might as well change the title of this thread to "Let's hack on Scandinavians".
I can see how it would feel like that.

By contrast, from my perspective, this thread has been a big heaping bowlful of "Dear god, we're not alone!"

You make excellent points, of course. That being said, it's important to note that a person not finding the Scandinavian-American culture appealing is a perfectly valid response.

There are things I love about where I live. My neighbors, for example. I have miles of bike trails, and I've even taking a liking to cross-country skiing. Nevertheless, the cultural differences -- particularly with regards to interpersonal communications -- are just too deep to want to live here any longer.

Take care,

Avindair
 
Old 01-28-2008, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,013,777 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbeet View Post
While I'm sure you already know this, I will share for all one lesson I learned while living all over the country: what you expect from people and places is generally what you will get.
You reap what you sow.

Just like with job searching, there's a little bit of luck involved in finding a decent social circle in a new location, and networking is everything.

I've always heard (speaking as a 40-year native Minnesotan, now) that "Minnesota Nice" meant that folks would say hello and help you out in times of need. I don't remember it ever meaning "we'll hug you in public and invite you over to dinner for a week" like some folks in this thread seem to (strangely) assume. I don't quite get that, but then again I'm a Minnesota native. <shrug>
 
Old 01-28-2008, 04:15 PM
 
49 posts, read 99,957 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbeet View Post
Whoa! Seems like you didn't read my post at all.... what you expect from people and places is generally what you will get.
Wow, I genuinely think we're crossing wires here.

Worse, I think the earlier version of my answer got lost, so I'll just sum up this time:

1. Yes, I read your whole post. I forgot to thank you for your supporting my statements. Mea Culpa.

That being said...

2. I'm a professional writer. Writing and editing both mine and others words is how I make my living.

Given that, please understand that the phrase "I don't know about that..." fairly jumped off of the screen. That prompted my response.

I know that your intent wasn't negative, but my reaction was also perfectly valid.

3. I'm also no stranger to the region,

a. I graduated college from the University of North Dakota.
b. My wife of twenty years is from North Dakota.

Even then, we've both been gob-smacked by the culture in the Minneapolis area.

4. I spent seven years in Europe, plus a few years in other places. Some have been fantastic, some...not so much. My experience with Minnesota is not the worst, but it's not where I chose to spend the rest of my life.

5. Your well-wishes are welcome.

Take care,

Avindair
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