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Old 09-02-2014, 03:26 AM
 
5,239 posts, read 6,519,676 times
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These cops clearly didn't handle this right, overzealous cops are dangerous types. They scare me, so I do what I'm asked to do. Complain, record it, whatever, but don't argue with the officer, that just buys trouble, no matter what your shade. Whether you have to show ID or not, if you refuse to do so, that will often change the tone of the officers and possibly escalate it given the type of cops involved. From their standpoint, they maybe thinking why won't this guy show us identification, what does he have to hide. Which is a logical thought. They don't know if the guy has a warrant, a protection order or what his history might be. If it had been me, I would have showed them my ID and chances are that would have been it. I can guarantee you that if a white guy sat there and someone called on him and he refused to show ID when asked the same type altercation would have occurred, at least if that type of officers were involved. So to make this purely about race, it isn't. And those that want to keep harping on everything being race related only create greater divisions. Further, racists come in all colors. It's about overzealous roided type cops that can make a mountain out of a mole hill, no matter who is involved. That type needs to be weeded out of the departments. They all need to be wearing body cams. I see now they also have taser cams.

I don't really get the connection with the original topic and why you included a link to a study done regarding interracial friendships. I don't put much stock in studies like this and it has no relevance to the thread topic.

If I were a young black male today I would be angry at the thugs and criminal types, for they are the root of the problem, the ones creating and reinforcing negative stereotypes.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:38 AM
 
104 posts, read 119,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd00 View Post

I don't really get the connection with the original topic and why you included a link to a study done regarding interracial friendships. I don't put much stock in studies like this and it has no relevance to the thread topic.

If I were a young black male today I would be angry at the thugs and criminal types, for they are the root of the problem, the ones creating and reinforcing negative stereotypes.

The study indicates that the prejudice that white people have about young black males or blacks in general stems largely from media and parenting (inherited bias) as opposed to personal experience.

This unfounded prejudice motivates mentalities such as the cops wherein a person who is black but stands up for his rights (freedom to sit in a public space as well as there is no stop and identify law in MN) is immediately deemed suspicious enough to warrant violent coercion of physical submission as well as disregard of constitutional rights.

Apparently, and you can research it yourself, many have sat in the same public sitting area to eat lunch or relax without being asked to identify themselves.

Yet upon approach by the police the young black man did move (he did not have to) but the police continued to follow and harass him for his name. Then they tasered him... For what?!? Police brutality fun?

What's even more disturbing to me is the guy is yelling for help from these goons who are obviously abusing him and no one offers any immediate help. Thankfully people did step up later and corroborated his story. He was just sitting there not doing anything when the St Paul police began demanding he identify himself. He was well within his rights to refuse to offer his name. We do not live in Nazi Germany...yet.

If he had been white like the many others who've sat there day after day, year after year, do you honestly think this would have happened?

Racism exist. This we all know. Racism will continue to exist if people pretend it doesn't exist.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:35 AM
 
5,239 posts, read 6,519,676 times
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The focus of the study seemed to be interracial friendships. The title of the piece was "Three quarters of whites don’t have any non-white friends". It did note that blacks had 83 black friends of the 100, so nearly 2/3rds. And it pointed out some reasons for the low numbers. And there are indeed different levels of friendship, that I don't believe was addressed. But in the short article I saw nothing about the supposed prejudice whites have and where they are getting their opinions. You make a point of mentioning that. You don't think at least some blacks view all white people with broad brush generalizations rather than as individuals? No matter what some multiple choice survey says, I believe most people these days judge people on their behavior and are not racist. If one dresses like a gangster, expect to be viewed that way by others. If one is loud, vulgar and discourteous, expect people to see you as a troublemaker. No matter what shade you happen to be. If one is courteous and speaks intelligently, expect people to view that young man or woman with respect.

The security guard is the one that told him it was a private area. Whether the guard knew better or not who's to say. People that have worked there said they sat there without a problem in the past. So this security guard seems to be overzealous and a jerk. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have been the same way to some young long haired white kid. I'm almost sure he would have been as that type has a power trip going and hassling people is what they enjoy. Cops would have immediately assumed this long haired white kid was a druggie maybe waiting for a connection, especially if he had refused to give ID. Their behavior to the kid would have been the same. If this had been some old guy that looked like he could possibly be homeless or just weak and down on his luck, these two would have operated in the same manner. If this had been some fat white woman with tattoos, the label would have been trailer trash and expect the same result. So this is not because he was black, this happened because these are thug cops that enjoy intimidating and harassing people. This is their behavior pattern and how they operate. If it had been me, I would have moved on from that area and then asked in the bank or contacted someone by phone about the seating there. That's not backing down just learning the facts regarding that area and avoiding a confrontation with an idiot. After that I probably would have gone over to the school, made contact with folks there and waited nearby.

As far as the ID bit, why wouldn't you willingly show ID if asked to do so? I don't feel that's a personal invasion, I have nothing to hide. So why is it a big deal, it shouldn't be unless one has warrants or an interesting past record. Then of course they don't want to tell the cops who they are. The first thing that comes to mind is what are you hiding. With his refusal to produce ID, they may have thought he did have warrants and became more determined to find out who he was. How do you think they often find people with warrants? If one refuses to give the officer information, it makes ya look like you have something to hide. There are some people that hate authority figures and make waves for that reason. It's not smart and in the end it serves no purpose to further their cause. And these same folks would be screaming their heads off if cops didn't check some guys ID and he committed some hideous violent crime in the area.

So while they handled this very, very badly while acting the part of thug cops to a tee, he did bring some of this on himself by his own defiance to initially move which led to calling the cops and to refusing to show identification. Had he produced ID this most likely would not have escalated as it did. Though the officers would still have probably been unprofessional and rude. That's part of what makes a thug cop. I have a problem with officers overusing the taser and deadly force on occasions where they had other options. I'm wondering if any studies have been done comparing the records of war veterans that have become cops to those that come from college or another background. I've personally seen a number of aggressive female officers, I believe they are sometimes trying to prove they are as tough as the males cops.

And don't forget racists haters come in all colors. If you think it goes only one way you are mistaken. I openly admit I hate thug types, but it's not their color I have the problem with, it's their behavior that I'm sick of. I hate thug cops too. And again it's the behavior that is the problem.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:32 PM
 
104 posts, read 119,701 times
Reputation: 58
Exactly what behavior in this scene was the problem? Sitting in a public space? Ignoring the harassing security guard who wrongly asked him to move? Or was his moving away from the area whilst still refusing to provide his name "wrong" behavior?

And sure racism can be justified particularly when the subjects are uncooperative. Those Jews should have known better than to wear a yarmulke back in the days before Hitler killed them. If they hadn't flaunted their Jewishness then they'd be fine. Why didn't they just try to fit in and be like all the other Germans?

Seriously, people should realize that if they don't dress like their neighbors or walk like their neighbors then they have created a problem for themselves. So if their neighbors decide to bully them and burn a cross on their lawn then that's their fault for not being like the rest of the neighbors.

I mean, really, people should all just try to be culturally the same and we all know which is the superior culture. And it's just like all those women who got raised...well duh..they were asking for it because of the way they dressed.

So yes, you're right, it's not the cops fault for denying a man his rights...he was black and therefore suspicious especially since he knew his rights. That's a no no! I mean, come on, we can't let all blacks exercise their rights to life, livery and the pursuit of happiness....some of them are in jail. And so if some of them are in jail then most likely they all belong in jail.

And you're right Todd, racism is only a construct in our heads that blacks dreamed up to create stress for white people. And you've every right to be sick and tired of hearing about it. And blacks should not be upset about dealing with it...they deserve it because some blacks are criminals.
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Old 09-03-2014, 05:00 AM
 
Location: Buckeye
601 posts, read 664,144 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillnew View Post

And you're right Todd, racism is only a construct in our heads that blacks dreamed up to create stress for white people. And you've every right to be sick and tired of hearing about it. And blacks should not be upset about dealing with it...they deserve it because some blacks are criminals.
White people are the least of cultural problems for African Americans
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
515 posts, read 929,977 times
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Quote:
but you haven't done anything suspicious nor have you done anything other than sit outside a store...so you refuse to tell the cops your name as you know it's against the law and violates your rights to freedom to be have to tell your name to a cop unless the cop suspects you of a crime....
Couple of points.

The police don't KNOW you haven't done anything "unlawful" so they can certainly ask you your business. They were called there by someone else, have limited information about why you're there and what you're doing. Yes, there's no law which says you have to tell them what your business is. However, all you're doing is ratcheting up any suspicion they might have had by not complying with a simple request that 99% of the population would comply with.

Could it have been handled better by the police? Yes. I probably wouldn't have let it get to the point where I had to tase someone. On the other hand, the man could have handled it better, too - by simply telling them "I'm Bob Smith, here's my ID, I'm waiting for my kids to get out of school..." If he sees that as a violation of his rights, there's an avenue to handle that - it's called a courtroom. Not in the heat of the moment, when two officers have been called there by someone who thinks you're up to no good, are trying to ascertain the validity of the call, and are getting zero cooperation from the individual.

In this day and age - where an abandoned backpack will cause people to call bomb squads - tensions can get high very quickly, especially if you're unwilling to let the police do their jobs and figure out who you are and what you're doing.

Like I said, could have been handled better, but all around.

As far as racism - if anyone has a racial preconception here, it's the guy who called the police when he saw a black man on a bench - not the police, whose job it is to respond and find out what's going on. Race has little to do with it. This is especially true when you consider the fact that there's always someone ready to yell "racism" whenever a law enforcement officer deals with someone who's any ethnicity other than white - police officers get sued all the time and that's in the back of every cops mind when he or she contacts someone. So the idea that their actions were intentionally racist is less likely, for that reason.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:14 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,453,647 times
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there is stuff the police do that i dont like. its right to question their behavior.
but too many people get on CDF and post pics of an arrest that clearly shows the arrested party assaulted the officer before the officer even did anything. all of them claiming its was a KKK attack on a persecuted minority.
this is not helpful how bout some more integrity and less moral outrage?
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
492 posts, read 537,741 times
Reputation: 1313
I really want this thread to go away. What is the point?

The place that Mr. Lollie was sitting is someone's private property. In this case, the bank's. As a result, they have the right to ask people to leave, regardless of whether there are signs posted etc.

Someone asked this guy to leave. HE DIDN'T.

That someone called the police, they arrived and tried to do their job. HE DIDN'T COOPERATE.

At this point, Mr. Lollie is 0 for 2 and on the wrong side of the law. If he would have answered the officers' questions, I'm sure we wouldn't be reading about this and discussing it. HE DIDN'T.

While he didn't yell, swear etc. he was being a smart a** to the cops. I was a preppy white kid and tried the same act with the police a couple times. I ended up in handcuffs just like Mr. Lollie. The only difference is I shut up and started cooperating before the taser came out. If Mr. Lollie had been more interested in letting the cops do their jobs instead to talking about his rights and getting in a p***ing contest with them, we wouldn't be talking about this.

I really don't have much sympathy for people of any race/color/creed/gender/sexual orientation/political background etc. that don't cooperate with the police. Some police officers are nice, some police officers are jerks. All of them have a difficult and dangerous job. They are required to protect us. They are not required to have endless patience for people that won't let them do their job.

Please stop this race baiting nonsense.

Last edited by MidwestRedux; 09-03-2014 at 01:53 PM..
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Jonesboro
3,169 posts, read 3,037,088 times
Reputation: 3375
Midwest
Did you notice in the 2nd linked story about the charges having been dropped that he did comply w/ the request of the officers to leave the area to get closer to the school to pick up his children & thought that would be the end of it. Unfortunately it wasn't given that the officers refused to disengage & lower the temperature on the scene.
A teacher at the school who witnessed the scene gave evidence in support of what the man said & based on that, and other factors, the charges were dropped.
So, based on those facts, things were not exactly as you wrote them above @ 3:44 today, Midwestredux.
A recent incident in Beverly Hills regarding the arrest of a producer who happened to be in the vicinity of a recently robbed bank & an incident in Seattle which involved an innocent pedestrian walking, which have both also come to light in recent weeks are similar in tone. In each case, a security guard &/or the police overstepped beyond where they should have or made a snap, incorrect diagnosis of a situation which resulted in a black man being arrested, handcuffed & humiliated on a public street. As happened in the St. Paul incident, the charges were dropped in each of those cases.
There is too much of this occurring in America which is evidence of a predisposition to assume that a man or person of color is "'suspicious" or at fault simply by his existence. To call the publicizing of these ugly incidents & arrests (all later thrown out) as racebaiting is incorrect & without merit. If you really can't see the point, as you ask, you are wearing blinders.
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
492 posts, read 537,741 times
Reputation: 1313
Quote:
Originally Posted by atler8 View Post
Midwest
Did you notice in the 2nd linked story about the charges having been dropped that he did comply w/ the request of the officers to leave the area to get closer to the school to pick up his children & thought that would be the end of it. Unfortunately it wasn't given that the officers refused to disengage & lower the temperature on the scene.
A teacher at the school who witnessed the scene gave evidence in support of what the man said & based on that, and other factors, the charges were dropped.
So, based on those facts, things were not exactly as you wrote them above @ 3:44 today, Midwestredux.
A recent incident in Beverly Hills regarding the arrest of a producer who happened to be in the vicinity of a recently robbed bank & an incident in Seattle which involved an innocent pedestrian walking, which have both also come to light in recent weeks are similar in tone. In each case, a security guard &/or the police overstepped beyond where they should have or made a snap, incorrect diagnosis of a situation which resulted in a black man being arrested, handcuffed & humiliated on a public street. As happened in the St. Paul incident, the charges were dropped in each of those cases.
There is too much of this occurring in America which is evidence of a predisposition to assume that a man or person of color is "'suspicious" or at fault simply by his existence. To call the publicizing of these ugly incidents & arrests (all later thrown out) as racebaiting is incorrect & without merit. If you really can't see the point, as you ask, you are wearing blinders.
You must be wearing ear plugs, because the audio of the video kind of speaks for itself.

Lollie: So what's your business with me right now?

Officer: I want to find out who you are and what the problem was back there.

Lollie: There is no problem, that's the thing.

Officer: So talk to me, let me know who you are, so you can be on your way

Lollie: Why do I have to let you know who I am? Who I am isn't the problem

Officer: Because that's what police do when they get called.

Lollie: I don't have to, I know my rights, first off. Secondly, I don't have to let you know who I am if I hadn't broken any laws. (Mr. Lollie starts to explain what happened and keeps talking over the officer. Then, wait for it...)
"THE PROBLEM IS I'M BLACK"

At this point the officer has done nothing wrong. She is doing her job. She doesn't know if Mr. Lollie is the nicest guy in the world or a mass murderer. She is being respectful of him, but he is not returning the favor. Not only has he not cooperated with her very reasonable requests, now he whips out the race card.

At this point, has the cop done anything racist? If she hadn't questioned Mr. Lollie, she would be failing to do her job.

I think its racist how instantly sympathetic people are to people like Mr Lollie that turned nothing into something.
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