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Old 09-03-2014, 10:10 PM
 
104 posts, read 119,630 times
Reputation: 58

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Racism exist and it's a problem for everyone..not just blacks. Our nation was built on the premise if freedom, liberty and justice for all by people who were oppressed. It was founded on the silly notion that we are all equal. Perhaps we should change the constitution to ensure that we avoid discussion of problems? Or better, just avoid affording everyone liberty and make sure a new constituon outlines who can be excluded from these rights. Cuz they're not really human. Now those guys in Russia and the Middle East -they're the ones who we should really be talking about! They need help, they're rights are being violated!

Btw, it's official we are now no better than all those third world countries out there...the UN has found the USA in violation of human rights.

U.N. experts grill U.S. on racial discrimination | Reuters
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
492 posts, read 537,067 times
Reputation: 1313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillnew View Post
Racism exist and it's a problem for everyone..not just blacks. Our nation was built on the premise if freedom, liberty and justice for all by people who were oppressed. It was founded on the silly notion that we are all equal. Perhaps we should change the constitution to ensure that we avoid discussion of problems? Or better, just avoid affording everyone liberty and make sure a new constituon outlines who can be excluded from these rights. Cuz they're not really human. Now those guys in Russia and the Middle East -they're the ones who we should really be talking about! They need help, they're rights are being violated!

Btw, it's official we are now no better than all those third world countries out there...the UN has found the USA in violation of human rights.

U.N. experts grill U.S. on racial discrimination | Reuters
My objection to this thread is that it is inherently racist and counterproductive. The title of the thread "St Paul cops allegedly taser and arrest black make for sitting in public space" leads the reader to believe that it's a forgone conclusion that this was an act of racial bias. There is nothing in the video or other known facts that would indicate that the arrest was racially motivated.

Mr Lollie had many, many opportunities to diffuse the situation. He declined all of those opportunities. If he would have left when the security guard told him to and then wrote a letter to the bank detailing the incident, what would have happened then? If Mr. Lollie was really in a public area minding his own business, the bank probably would have fired the guard and sent Mr. Lollie a letter of apology. Justice served. If he would have given the rather polite cop his name, end of story. No arrest, no taser.

I've watched and listened to the video many times and I only see one person acting out and invoking race, and that's Mr. Lollie.

If the events had been a little different, would it be ok to have a thread titled "Black St. Paul cop allegedly tasers and arrests man for sitting in public space?" I don't think so. This is a racist double standard.

FWIW, the UN is an absolute joke when it comes to issues of human rights and pretty much everything else. China and Saudi Arabia are both current members of the UN Human Rights Council. What else do you really need to know about the UN's credibility in preaching to the US?
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:11 AM
 
Location: Buckeye
601 posts, read 663,428 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillnew View Post
Racism exist and it's a problem for everyone..not just blacks. Our nation was built on the premise if freedom, liberty and justice for all by people who were oppressed. It was founded on the silly notion that we are all equal.
Our country was founded on the notion we were all created equal. Many people excel beyond equality and become more physically fit, wealthier, wiser, etc. There have been social/political systems where all people are forced to remain in that state of "equality" with none having any advantages over another. They all have failed.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:45 AM
 
104 posts, read 119,630 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestRedux View Post
My objection to this thread is that it is inherently racist and counterproductive. The title of the thread "St Paul cops allegedly taser and arrest black make for sitting in public space" leads the reader to believe that it's a forgone conclusion that this was an act of racial bias. There is nothing in the video or other known facts that would indicate that the arrest was racially motivated.

Mr Lollie had many, many opportunities to diffuse the situation. He declined all of those opportunities. If he would have left when the security guard told him to and then wrote a letter to the bank detailing the incident, what would have happened then? If Mr. Lollie was really in a public area minding his own business, the bank probably would have fired the guard and sent Mr. Lollie a letter of apology. Justice served. If he would have given the rather polite cop his name, end of story. No arrest, no taser.

I've watched and listened to the video many times and I only see one person acting out and invoking race, and that's Mr. Lollie.

If the events had been a little different, would it be ok to have a thread titled "Black St. Paul cop allegedly tasers and arrests man for sitting in public space?" I don't think so. This is a racist double standard.

FWIW, the UN is an absolute joke when it comes to issues of human rights and pretty much everything else. China and Saudi Arabia are both current members of the UN Human Rights Council. What else do you really need to know about the UN's credibility in preaching to the US?
Wow! Racist and counterproductive? Really? So minorities who move to the MSP area should not be made aware that their rights might be violated or that people are presumptuous with regards to race?

It is absolutely a necessary thread such that all can be aware that yes, skin color does make a difference in ones assimilation into the MSP area despite the progressiveness of many here. And it's absolutely necessary to be aware that race relations here are not as seamless as many on this board want to believe.

The defensive vehemence of posters who refute racism are most certainly the ones who propagate it as they're the first to rationalize ill-treatment of fellow humans -but with different skin colors of course and only in America. Many posters arrive here looking for information about MSP's culture and lifestyles it is only fair that they should be made aware of the positives and the negatives. Skin color in MSP makes a difference in how one is treated...though there are more visible inter-racial couples here than most cities the majority of folks here still prejudge those who are minorities and treat them with minimal respect...even kids.

Probably and most importantly blacks moving here need to understand that they will be regarded as Somalian though they be descendants of Jefferson or Lincoln. And that they will be treated distantly by many, particularly by those who gross under $150k annually, with disdain until they prove they are "worthy" -have multiple higher education degrees or are seriously wealthy.

Minorities moving here also need to be aware that it will be expected that they give up their rights to privacy and freedom as witnessed by this thread. Yep, the dude should have just given the police who were following him for no good reason his name and address to prove that he is acceptable. He just had to prove it and he didn't. Hundreds of others have sat there not having to prove anything but nope, he should have. And when he assented and moved away as they asked him too he should have expected that he'd be followed since he didn't state his name.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
515 posts, read 929,337 times
Reputation: 838
Also, just FYI, but charges are dropped in court every day, for various reasons - lack of resources to prosecute, not wanting to charge someone with what's considered a minor crime when there are more serious ones on the docket, etc. It doesn't mean a crime was not committed and/or the person wasn't wrong.

Having charges dropped is not a determinant of innocence, just as being arrested, charged, or indicted by a grand jury doesn't mean one is guilty.

In the end, cooperation is always the best way to accomplish something, whether it's a police contact or anything else. "Cooperation" means doing something you might not have to do, in order to reach a common goal. Now, it's certainly legal to simply sit there and decline to cooperate, but that's not an effective way to reach that goal - in Mr. Lollie's case, the 'goal' being to have the police leave him alone. Yet he decided not to put forth any effort, which, again, is certainly legal. However, imagine how a person's life would be if they used that tactic all the time, refusing to cooperate with anyone, about anything?

Quote:
So minorities who move to the MSP area should not be made aware that their rights might be violated or that people are presumptuous with regards to race?
Once again, I'm not seeing anywhere in this incident where race played a role - it's simply your assumption - followed by a proclamation - that it did. A thread title that attempts to mislead the reader into believing that doesn't help your argument. I'm not saying you meant to title it that way, but it still only gives one side of the story.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
492 posts, read 537,067 times
Reputation: 1313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillnew View Post
Wow! Racist and counterproductive? Really? So minorities who move to the MSP area should not be made aware that their rights might be violated or that people are presumptuous with regards to race?

It is absolutely a necessary thread such that all can be aware that yes, skin color does make a difference in ones assimilation into the MSP area despite the progressiveness of many here. And it's absolutely necessary to be aware that race relations here are not as seamless as many on this board want to believe.

The defensive vehemence of posters who refute racism are most certainly the ones who propagate it as they're the first to rationalize ill-treatment of fellow humans -but with different skin colors of course and only in America. Many posters arrive here looking for information about MSP's culture and lifestyles it is only fair that they should be made aware of the positives and the negatives. Skin color in MSP makes a difference in how one is treated...though there are more visible inter-racial couples here than most cities the majority of folks here still prejudge those who are minorities and treat them with minimal respect...even kids.

Probably and most importantly blacks moving here need to understand that they will be regarded as Somalian though they be descendants of Jefferson or Lincoln. And that they will be treated distantly by many, particularly by those who gross under $150k annually, with disdain until they prove they are "worthy" -have multiple higher education degrees or are seriously wealthy.

Minorities moving here also need to be aware that it will be expected that they give up their rights to privacy and freedom as witnessed by this thread. Yep, the dude should have just given the police who were following him for no good reason his name and address to prove that he is acceptable. He just had to prove it and he didn't. Hundreds of others have sat there not having to prove anything but nope, he should have. And when he assented and moved away as they asked him too he should have expected that he'd be followed since he didn't state his name.
OK, one last time:

The police were called to an alleged incident. They have an OBLIGATION to gather facts about the incident and record them. Mr. Lollie obstructed their LEGAL efforts to gather facts so that they can close the alleged incident. That is their job. They even told Mr. Lollie in plane terms, "this is what cops do when they're called. Tell me your name so you can be on your way." Its not racist, its not illegal search and seizure or cruel and unusual punishment or anything else you would like to make it to be.

If my neighbor calls the police on me because he thinks my lawnmower is too loud, the police will come and ask me my name and what is going on. If I insist on interfering with them doing their job, I am responsible for the consequences.

If you watch that video and your take away is that the police were awful racists, you are blinded by your own bias and/or victim complex.

Now, was the security guard potentially wrong or racist? Maybe. Maybe he was African-American as well? I don't know. Neither do you. I don't believe the guard or guards that started the incident have been identified.

However, the police got a call and tried to do their job. Mr. Lollie refused to allow them and suffered the consequences. If that's your idea of racism, you are going to have a pretty awful life in any society.
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:01 PM
 
104 posts, read 119,630 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestRedux View Post
OK, one last time:

The police were called to an alleged incident. They have an OBLIGATION to gather facts about the incident and record them. Mr. Lollie obstructed their LEGAL efforts to gather facts so that they can close the alleged incident. That is their job. They even told Mr. Lollie in plane terms, "this is what cops do when they're called. Tell me your name so you can be on your way." Its not racist, its not illegal search and seizure or cruel and unusual punishment or anything else you would like to make it to be.

If my neighbor calls the police on me because he thinks my lawnmower is too loud, the police will come and ask me my name and what is going on. If I insist on interfering with them doing their job, I am responsible for the consequences.

If you watch that video and your take away is that the police were awful racists, you are blinded by your own bias and/or victim complex.

Now, was the security guard potentially wrong or racist? Maybe. Maybe he was African-American as well? I don't know. Neither do you. I don't believe the guard or guards that started the incident have been identified.

However, the police got a call and tried to do their job. Mr. Lollie refused to allow them and suffered the consequences. If that's your idea of racism, you are going to have a pretty awful life in any society.
Apparently you misunderstood the article(s) and follow-up news reports. The cops were illegally attempting to garner this man's identity. It is against the law for a cop to ask anyone about their identity in Minnesota unless they can have reason to suspect the person has broken the law.

The mall security guard has been identified and been reprimanded. The charges have been dropped for their was illegal and no act of wrongdoing by the the victim/charged. The case is now under investigation as is the police department.

I suspect with your ability to live in denial and your negatory projections you are the one in need of sympathy. I, like millions of others who watched video in horror, see life for what is...as opposed to youth such as yourself who believe posturing is necessary for success. Wisdom holds that the true key to a happy life is compassion.
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Southwest Minneapolis
492 posts, read 537,067 times
Reputation: 1313
"It is against the law for a cop to ask anyone about their identity in Minnesota unless they can have reason to suspect the person has broken the law"

FALSE

I'm pretty sure you are quoting a statement from the Minnesota ACLU, as opposed to an actual law. Minnesota does not have any specific law or statute identifying when people do and don't need to identify themselves. The existing laws are ambiguous. While not specific to Minnesota, the United States Supreme Court has ruled that if police have ANY grounds for suspicion of illegal activity they can ask a person to identify themselves without infringing on their constitutional rights. If someone calls the police on you, that would more than satisfy that requirement.

"The charges have been dropped for their was illegal and no act of wrongdoing by the the victim/charged."

I think you are trying to say that because the charges were dropped (this is true) that the police determined that there was no wrongdoing. If that's what you're saying, its an assumption not a fact. Charges can be dropped for a variety of reasons. In this case, it may very well be because of the publicity of the incident.

"The case is now under investigation as is the police department."

This is also true in the sense that they are reviewing the facts of the case because of the amount of publicity.

I haven't seen anything that indicates the security guard has been identified. Surely you can provide a link to a had news source like the TC Daily Planet with this info.

"I suspect with your ability to live in denial and your negatory projections you are the one in need of sympathy. I, like millions of others who watched video in horror, see life for what is...as opposed to youth such as yourself who believe posturing is necessary for success. Wisdom holds that the true key to a happy life is compassion."

Its always entertaining to see liberal guilt dissolve into sophomoric pseudo-intellectual/philosophical condescension.
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
515 posts, read 929,337 times
Reputation: 838
Quote:
The charges have been dropped for their was illegal and no act of wrongdoing by the the victim/charged.
Once again, this is an utterly-false assumption. Charges being dropped does NOT mean there was "no act of wrongdoing," just as charges being filed doesn't mean a person is guilty.

I find it ironic that people who often accuse law enforcement of racism - as you've done here - will almost universally point out that a person who is arrested or charged is 'innocent until proven guilty,' yet you can't seem to understand the flip side to that coin.

It seems to me that you're continually trying to find a racist smoking gun in this scenario when a number of folks have pointed out that one doesn't exist. There are a lot of "outrageous" videos on the internet depicting the actions of law enforcement officers, but almost all of them fail to provide any background as to why something ended up happening. While officers certainly make mistakes, in only a very few of them are the cops completely at fault, yet people with preconceptions about the police look at them, believe what they want to believe, and come to conclusions based primarily on 1) those preconceptions and 2) the limited information presented. I think that's what you're doing here, because in 3 pages of posts filled with racist accusations, no one else can seem to find where racism was a factor.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:43 AM
 
5,172 posts, read 2,998,481 times
Reputation: 17656
Mr. Lollie saw an opportunity to make a point - that there is racism in MN. And he seized it. Simple as that.

It's a technique as old as the hills. I remember it from my Vietnam War protester days. Nothing is guaranteed to make you look like a victim as much as failure to cooperate with the police. If you want to be a hero for a cause this is the fast track.

The whole situation raises peoples' consciousness and keeps the conversation going. Unfortunately it also reinforces for some young Black people that they are constantly being victimized because of the color of their skin.

My generation didn't know this sensationalizing technique and had to be trained by campus infiltrators. Mr. Lollie's generation is spoon-fed resistance to "The Man" for a cause in their liberal schools.

Yes, there's prejudice in MN. It exists everywhere. The larger question in this case is whether that was happening in this case.

I don't know for certain, but it must be difficult for people of color to tell when they are being discriminated against at times. Was it my skin color or was it my behavior? I suppose that always has to be taken into account.

Maybe people of color assume that all white people have smooth sailing. The day I was buying my wedding trousseau I was sitting on a bench outside of Dayton's Sky Room and was approached by a security guard who asked for my ID and what I was doing in the store. I was well-groomed, well-dressed, and spending big.

It's their job to do this. If I'd wanted to make it about harassment of young people I would have done just as Mr. Lollie did.
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