Definition of "GOOD" and "BEST" School Districts PLEASE. (Minneapolis: get credit)

[golfgal]

[quote=Bongopercylou;4056022]

Originally Posted by golfgal

My intent here is not a personal attack on you, GolfGal. My OP really is an honest question because I'm very interested in the ways people view school districts when it comes to good, better, top and best and how that conclusion is made.

But I REALLY do have a problem when someone with the title "MODERATOR" on this forum CONTINUALLY makes exaggerated and uninformed posts. I mean, if you don't have the facts to back up MANY of your claims on this site, please say this is your opinion and don't write like it's fact. ESPECIALLY if it's based largely on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I think, and it is my own personal opinion, that people who visit the site are looking for valuable and informed information.

Well, I guess then you will just have to consider my FACTS as exaggerated claims then.

School District 196 Public Relations and Communications

School District 196 Public Relations and Communications

School District 196 Public Relations and Communications

School District 196 Public Relations and Communications

What does my mod status have to do with anything? How exactly are my posts exaggerated and uninformed? What background do you have to make those claims? What personal and professional experience do you have with the schools here or elsewhere? Everything I posted is easily verified.

My Lakeville information comes from my sister in law who is an administrator in that district.

Call the Champlin Park band director and ask what happened to their program last year. Anyone involved in the marching band scene in MN will give you the exact same information. Heck, look at past pictures of their marching band and a picture from last year and count the members.

Why do you ask for opinions then bash one that is given? What exactly is your objective here?

As for parents moving to where their kids activities mesh, yes, that is personal experience from HERE, talking with other parents, etc. It isn't all that hard to figure out when almost every single poster that comes here asks "we are moving from xxx state, we want good schools where my child can be in xxxx activity but close to xxx town where I will be working". Read the old posts.

[Bongopercylou]

1. The first link above you posted had to do with "what parents want." This doesn't make 196 the best district in the state.

2. Link number two you posted was about the speech team. Great news, which I read some time ago, but still does not mean 196 is the top or best in state as an overall school district.

3. Link number three had to do with some other students winning some merit awards. Great news. But LOTS of students ALL OVER THE STATE win these awards. Does not mean 196 is best district in state.

4. Finally, my favorite link, #4. I'm not sure how anyone else reads the the title: "District 196 students outscore state ACT average that was highest in the nation"
This means the STATE had the highest average in the nation, not district 196 had the highest average in the state.

You ask, what does your mod status have to do with anything?

It has to do with the fact that when people come to this forum, they are looking for informed and well-rounded, hopefully unbiased opinions. If someone is presenting fact, back up the fact with your source. The status of Moderator implies to me and in my opinion, to others that it is a person of value to City-Data, who may know more than the common or casual observer. Someone with a level of responsibility and tact. Someone who is a leader perhaps. When that leader or person of responsibility makes false claims and exaggerations, it discredits that moderator and weakens the strength of the online community.

You asked the following questions:
"What background do you have to make those claims? What personal and professional experience do you have with the schools here or elsewhere?"

Make what claims? That your posts are exaggerated and inaccurate? My background is just a common citizen looking for information and regretting it. I have use of the internet and phone. As far as personal and professional experience I have with schools here or elsewhere, I would say that is irrelevant because I have not made any claims about what I think is best or better or top when it comes to schools.

You wrote: "Everything I posted is easily verified."
Or not. In response to your other question: "How exactly are my posts exaggerated and uninformed?" I have posted the below 9 examples of false, discrediting or exaggerated claims made by you. There were many others and it took me about 10 minutes to find these 9.

Example #1:

“Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan 
Edina has the best high school hockey team in the Cities. They rival hockey-centric towns in the Iron Range. Like you say, if you kid plays football go to Eden Prairie. If you kid does hockey, and is serious about it, Edina is worth it. Most people would also consider Edina to be slightly better academically. Edina is still the same gold standard today that it was when you were here.”

You wrote: “That was true 20 years ago but no longer is the case. Last year was the first year in 10 years that Edina made it to the state tournament.”

Response #1:
Perhaps Edina hasn’t won the hockey championship in the last ten years (except for last year) but you address this in a manner that discredits Minnehahapolitan’s post about it being a gold standard school academically. Edina is a gold standard school academically. Newsweek - National News, World News, Health, Technology, Entertainment and more... | Newsweek.com ranks it as the top school in MN 5.28.2008. Even though this is a renowned publication, I know you won’t credit this article as being accurate. Edina isn’t half bad at hockey historically OR in recent years. For the true sribe on this this front see Best of the west. If winning last year’s championship is any indication of what is to come for Edina, they will win again. History shouldn’t be balked at here and the fact that Edina won the championship once in 10 years you are excluding semi-finals and other wins. That doesn’t necessarily make it “no longer the case.”

Example #2:

“All these districts are good and will give you what you want. Minnetonka and Edina are a bit older population and you won't see AS many young families. Plymouth will have more younger families. Don't rule out the south and east suburbs in your search. While they may seem farther out, they really aren't. Mahtomedi and Eagan are 2 of the top districts in the state.”

Response #2:

Yes, the “bit” you are talking about is a VERY little BIT. Almost such a “bit” that it’s not worth mentioning. The difference of 6-8 years in median age between cities.
South and East Suburbs seem farther out but really aren’t? What does that mean? Yes, they ARE farther out from the city compared to Minnetonka and Edina. MapQuest Maps, Directions, Gas Prices & Business Directory

Example #3:

“There is one suburban town here that his having some pretty serious financial troubles due to very rapid growth. They are raising their activity fees for everything, sports, music, theater, speech, etc. to $300/kid/actvivity. In St. Paul the kids pay $15/activity.”

Response #3:

$15 is true for elementary schools in St. Paul but it is NOT the case for high schools. $225 for boys football at North St Paul. Activity Fees

Example #4:

"The BIG difference between our area and there area-schools. Missouri ranks about 48th in education, Minnesota ranks first."

Response #4:
Elementary schools according to Psk12.com - MN ranks 5 and Missouri ranks 23. You say this like it’s an inclusive ranking of every ranking out there. There are MANY rankings showing MANY different results. This goes to the point of there is no way to gauge any school district based on rankings. If you think one ranking system is better than another, then please say which ranking system you’re using.

Example #5:
“Cadillacs--not many people drive them in MN. You will see more BMW's, Mercedes and Lexus cars then Cadillacs. Most people realize that a Cadillac is not a very good car”

Response #5:

Cadillac CST 2008 is Motortrend car of the year. New Cars, Car Reviews & Prices, Used Cars for Sale, & Auto Shows at Motor Trend Magazine. Cadillac is also ranked #3 in fewest problems per 100. Only beat by Lexus #2 and Buick #1. BMW ranks #7 and Mercedes ranks #13 (Buy New & Used Cars, Research Prices, Sell My Car, Find Auto Dealers)

If “not many people drive Cadillac in MN” then why are there over 11 Cadillac dealerships and only 2 Lexus dealerships and 3 Mercedes and BMW dealerships in the state of MN?

Example #6:

"Our district average for the ACT is 24.9, well above the state average (highest in the state)."

Response #6:
The average ACT score in the state of MN is 22.5 in 2007. Is that well below 24.9? Maybe to some it is, but probably not to the regular reader here, IMHO.
While I don’t know if Wayzata is highest, they received 25 which is higher than 24.9. Which would mean if you think IDS 196 has the HIGHEST in the state and nation, that would be incorrect. Sun Newspapers - MNSUN.com - Archives
By the way, District 196 website said the score was 23.8 for 06-07.

Example #7:
"I don't know where they get their information but I know for fact that NONE of these insurance companies will give homeowners policies to owners of dangerous breed dogs, at least in MN. It is possible they will do so in other states as each state has their own insurance laws but not in Minnesota."

Response #7:

Not True. One of the companies listed in the thread was State Farm. State Farm is one of the agencies you write you know for FACT that will not insure. According to a rep from State Farm, “It is based on dog’s history and if it’s ever bit anyone. We don’t ask what breed the dog is.” 5.30.2008

Example #8:

“EVERYTHING schools do today are based on faulty testing practices through NCLB.” and “Sorry, but NCLB has been the WORST think EVER to happen to the school systems.”

Response #8:

If you are talking about No Child Left Behind, then what merit does it pose to the “Blue Ribbon” awards 196 and other districts have received?

Example #9:
“Well, in the 80's the Federal government funded the special education programs for the nations schools, they no longer do. That accounts for about 99% of the increase right there.”

Response #9:

While the federal gov has not made right on its promise to deliver over the past 30 years, it still continues to subsidize. leg.state.mn.us and see a contribution of “nearly $37 billion to states and school districts to improve K-12 schools and meet the special needs of students” ed.gov.


I tried to find a post from you where you at least paraphrase with “in my opinion” or “I think” or “in my expereince.” While it was difficult, this is the best example I could find and I would hope you would continue to use those very “KEY” words in stating your OPINION.

“In my experience most kids that age that are crybabies are that way because they are used to getting their way at home and when they are in a situation where they don't get their way, they cry.”

Furthermore, above you write: "My Lakeville information comes from my sister in law who is an administrator in that district."
Golfgal, either you are uniformed or very arrogant to constantly use blanket terms like "always," "never," "best," and so on. If your sister in law is your main source of facts, perhaps always include "My sister in law told me..." or "My sister in law said" instead of making blanket comments.

Finally you ask me what exactly my objective is here.

Well, in my original post was to find out how people gauge what they think best, better or top means to them when it comes to schools. You come along and dive right in on how without doubt 196 is best and you have absolutely no facts to back that up. The objective of this message is to call you out on a lot of inaccurate, exaggerated and discrediting posts I've read by you.

To those of you out there sending me messages thanking me for it, it's been my pleasure.

[golfgal]

Boy you have way more time on your hands then I do. Just for the record, North St. Paul is an entirely DIFFERENT school district then the St. Paul Schools. Why do you even bother to read City Data if all you do is come and bash what people say?

In my opinion the 196 schools ARE the best in the state, take it or leave it but what does it really matter to you???

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by Bongopercylou

1. The first link above you posted had to do with "what parents want." This doesn't make 196 the best district in the state.

Not to pile on, but the first link also mentions that "District 196 is one of 70 Minnesota school districts recognized this year" for the "What Parents Want Award", which also seems to put it in the top 16 percent nationwide, and I suspect in a similar position statewide, which is not a bad thing at all.

However, I suspected that number of other metro-area school districts also received that award, so I looked, and that appears to be the case including many of the SW suburban schools that I grew up with (Hopkins, Minnetonka, Wayzata, St. Louis Park, Edina, Bloomington, Eden Prairie, etc.) and would expect to still be providing a quality education.

That makes 196 a good district by that particular measure, but it's not the only good district. A lot of the school districts in the Twin Cities are good districts.

Interestingly, my current local school district (Cobb County, GA) also made the list, and they have over 106,000 total students in 113 schools including 17 different high schools. Not bad for a relatively large public school system.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by golfgal

In my opinion the 196 schools ARE the best in the state, take it or leave it but what does it really matter to you???

My own personal guess would be Edina, but that's just based on a gut feeling and 40+ years of hearing about it from friends who went there (well, Edina East).

I also thought my own school (Hopkins Lindbergh at the time, now Hopkins High School) was very good, but I don't know how it rates these days.

[Bongopercylou]

[quote=golfgal;4069901]
"Boy you have way more time on your hands then I do."

Took about an hour, but I thought it was worth it. Just from another statistical standpoint, your 2500+ posts outweigh my fewer than 30. I think I have 20 something posts, but whatever, I'm pretty sure I've spent a lot less time on here than you have - unless you type really fast!

[quote=golfgal;4069901]
"Just for the record, North St. Paul is an entirely DIFFERENT school district then the St. Paul Schools. Why do you even bother to read City Data if all you do is come and bash what people say? "

Soooo, when you say St Paul pays $15/activity you are talking about a certain school district? Well, SSP has $180 for hockey um, Como Park has $90 for boys football...I don't know what else to say except that it's not $15.

[quote=golfgal;4069901]
"In my opinion the 196 schools ARE the best in the state, take it or leave it but what does it really matter to you???"

THANK YOU! You did it! You said, "IN MY OPINION!" It matters to me because people look at your posts as having some sort of authority. I have never "bashed" you, nor would I.

I answered the questions above that you posted - that isn't bashing. That is answering your questions. It also matters to me because when I google information about the Twin Cities the majority of search results have to do with City-Data and YOUR posts. I am looking for accurate information, and you're not providing it.

I'm happy that you've given your opinion! That's what I wanted in the first place. But I will continue to call you out if you make false claims aka stating opinion as fact.

Golfgal, it takes seconds online to back up any facts or claims you're trying to make. Try it, you'll like it!

[Bongopercylou]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

My own personal guess would be Edina, but that's just based on a gut feeling and 40+ years of hearing about it from friends who went there (well, Edina East).

I also thought my own school (Hopkins Lindbergh at the time, now Hopkins High School) was very good, but I don't know how it rates these days.

Thanks for your post. I read on the ACT site at some point that they don't publish specific ACT scores by district, but Hopkins traditionally does well, I think. It has an interesting district boundary. Was it huge and jagged when you attended? You can go to lots of the western suburbs and be in Hopkins ISD 270. It includes parts of Golden Valley, SLP, Minnetonka and obviously Hopkins. Even as far out as some areas on the other side of the 394/494 interchange.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by Bongopercylou

Thanks for your post. I read on the ACT site at some point that they don't publish specific ACT scores by district, but Hopkins traditionally does well, I think. It has an interesting district boundary. Was it huge and jagged when you attended?

Yes, I think the boundaries for the Hopkins school district were very strange even back then, though I think it was Independent District 294 in those days and then 290 later on before it became today's district 270.

I lived in east Minnetonka, but we had folks from Hopkins and Golden Valley for sure. The Hopkins district annexed all or part of the Golden Valley during my senior year (1980-1981), so we had a number of classmates at graduation who were wearing Golden Valley colors on the top of their graduation caps. We wore the Flyers' maroon and gold, of course -- not the effeminate silver and blue that the so-called Hopkins Royals wear these days. Er. Sorry.

I actually attended Hopkins Eisenhower High School for part of the second half of my senior year due to a lack of interest (and corresponding lack of classroom attendence) at Lindbergh, but I managed to get my diploma on time anyway thanks to good grades. I had figured (correctly) that my GPA and ACT score would be enough to get into college, but I failed to realize that attendance was mandatory and that my test scores didn't matter if I wasn't in class. I had no idea I'd get in that kind of trouble if I could ace the tests anyway.

Stupid rules.

[MNNative]

First of all I haven't looked at your profile but Bongopercylou if you aren't a lawyer, you should be!

Secondly, though I can't vouch for how accurate a system they use or anything of the sort, I will throw out 2 sites I have visited and have heard to be popular sites for gaging where schools rank and how they compare to other MN schools.

1. Schooldigger.com -- Search and compare elementary, middle, and high schools.
You can search individual schools or search by school district. I like that they outline the Best Schools, Worst Schools, individual School Rankings as well as District Rankings. They even rank cities.

2. GreatSchools.net
This site isn't as...thorough...as School Digger and it doesn't offer the numerical rank like they do (xxx school is ranked x out of x elementary/middle/high schools), but they do run off of a 1-10 score and that's easy enough to understand.

[SlyFrog]

Thank you Bongopercylou. I too have noticed golfgal's trumpeting of 196 in ways that seem excessive or unrealistic.

I do not think there is any malice behind it; instead I think that golfgal probably just lives in the school district, is proud of it, and like most people, wants to believe that her choice was the best one in all ways (golfgal has also given some other thoughts on the Rosemount area in the past that made me roll my eyes a bit, but again, I think she has the best intention and is just a bit too enthusiastic about it).