Schools for Gifted Children (Burnsville: living in, moving, pool)

[Epublius Rex]

Originally Posted by Minervah

Epublius Rex, I find your comments fascinating. I grew up in an era that did not have computers and TV was watched minimally. My sisters and I all knew how to read by the time we reached kindergarten not because we were geniuses but because we would sit on my dad's lap while he read the paper and he would point out letters. Then he would quiz us as to what they were. And we had the simplest toys kids have had for decades; toy blocks with letters on them with which we learned to make words and then sentences. We could also take things apart and put them together and converse using proper English. We were taught numbers by cutting them out of the newspapers or magazines. Did that make us smarter than the average kid? No. We had parents who taught us these things hands on rather than plunking us down in from of electronic devices that cause a passive learning rather than kinetic. In other words, our parents developed skills and abilities in us that every normal kid has the potential to cultivate.

At one time my teacher wanted me to "skip" a grade because she thought I was bored. My mom said "No" and I'm glad she did. Excelling in one field whether it's reading, math or whatever does not a genius make. And kids who get push beyond their social skills (being forced to interact with older kids) develop problems carried into adulthood. Perhaps being pushed ahead before they are mature enough to handle social situations is the reason some kids can't get along with their peers no matter where they are placed.

Recently, my sister who is a grade school teacher told me that research has shown that kids who watch Sesame Street actually often fall behind those who don't when they enter school. The reason is the difference between passive learning; sitting/ watching and hands-on learning; physically manipulating letters and numbers. I am not arguing with anyone here as to whether or not their kids are gifted but I do believe that by today's standards, the term is used much more loosely than in the past.

Your parents did right by you. I had very similar experiences. The idea of advancing or not advancing children is an interesting topic. The school authorities wanted to hold me back after kindergarten and again 1st grade--though my teachers objected to it. They understood I was simply attached to my mother (a tough time in our lives, actually) and needed to be near her--my 1st grade teacher sent the homework home by mail for me at times and I did it and returned it.

Back in the 50's/60s, kindergarten was for socialization, not learning to read, etc. It was better for kids than today's environment. Five year olds need to play, not memorize. The whole movement toward early learning was not because the average middle class child was falling behind, it was due to school integration and busing. Look it up. The problem for left leaning social scientists was the outcome for certain minority children--no matter what they did, or still do, the scores do not equalize. As a result, all scores have dropped. This is what is referred to as dumbing down the system. This was also the time period where these same social scientists convinced the majority of people that intelligence was 20% nature and 80% nurture. There were plenty of people who disagreed with this, but they were silenced and called bigots.

Recent genetic studies indicate what the test scores always showed--that it is the opposite. Intelligence is 80% nature, 20% nurture. IN fact, more recent studies of highly intelligent children prove that the truly "gifted" child will create its own learning environment, if left alone and simply aided in this. Truly gifted children are not about memorizing, they are about discovery, the ability to make something from nothing--a wide and expansive imagination. People lacking these real gifts do not understand it and cannot--their minds are not capable of it. And parents who cannot "see" this, are highly unlikely to have a child that can.

Minnesota is one of the highest average IQ state in the nation--today 103, in my childhood, 105--then it was the highest. So it has dropped. It was during the late 50s and early 60s that people began moving here who were no where near this level--85 average IQ. These children were no where near the level of the average Minnesota child. They were woefully equipped to compete. This situation has only been exacerbated over time.

Average IQ Score by State

Because of Minnesota's leftist leaning public school system, we have dropped from the number one state for public education, to 13th. Because of generous welfare benefits, we have dropped from number one IQ, to 5th. But this is public school data and, as you can see on this website, nearly 50% of all urban kids are in private schools these days. I honestly believe that if you love your child, you have no other choice. Public schools will actually tear a gifted child down in the big city public schools--this has been documented by the Center for the American Experiment--wherein they allow people who barely made it out of high school--laymen, to determine what is gifted and what isn't. I removed my daughter from a highly acclaimed public school for just that reason.

When she was in 3rd grade I received a letter from the St. Paul Public Schools claiming that my daughter showed no signs of giftedness. I had not asked for this report--they apparently just did it. The fact that her test scores, later that year, showed her reading math skills to be off their charts made it even more laughable--but you know, she was a well behaved child. Which meant that she didn't just spontaneously jump out of her desk and begin dancing around the room or reciting senseless rhymes out of nowhere. I kid you not, this was documented by the above named institute. This "system" was put in place to curb "racism" by the schools, parents and teachers--racism which didn't exist. She was denied access to a science program because of it.

After I protested, she was allowed into the program. She turned out to be the best student in the class--but the powers that be would not admit to their mistake, oh my no. It had to be a fluke. The fact that there was not another child in the school of any grade who could touch not just her reading skills, but her comprehension (which is what is truly important, not just the reading) made no difference to them. They quietly ignored the fact that she out read every student by thousands of pages and hundreds of books over the course of the school year.

Public school teachers themselves are at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to academic achievement--a so called "educational degree" supposedly teaches the "theory of education" but what it really means is that the teacher themselves was not smart enough to get a degree in English, math, science, history or what have you. This was true when I was in college and has only gotten worse in the years since.

As my mother used to say "those who can, do, those who can't, teach". In private schools, you will find that the teachers have degrees in the subjects they teach. They are therefore more intelligent than public school teachers and are less likely to resent highly intelligent children.

My IQ? clocked in 1977 on a Stanford-Binet test, 153-157. My one, and only SAT score was 1540 that same year. The range is due to the fact that the higher the IQ, the more difficult it becomes to accurately test it. This is a known problem, since those who make up the tests are limited by their own abilities. That test score puts me in a world wide 99.9 percentile. It makes me less then one in a million, significantly. My wife is around 125, very high, but nowhere near me. Our children, the four of them (one having been lost) fall well below me, but much above hers. They are/were all above 135--132 being entry level genius.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

For my own education Kim 825, could you define gifted and give some examples of your struggles? I'd like to learn. See Definition of Gifted - What is a Gifted Child?


My boy is in the top 1% in math, science, and reading. He is #1 in his class ranking of 650 students mostly through hard work. I know there are kids that are much smarter than him in all three topics. I personally consider my kid "real smart" but not gifted. But according the link above, my Kid is "gifted". Heck, my daughter is also "Moderately gifted" according to the link (what us Minnesotan's call a pretty smart Kid).

Hence, if I was moving to the area, I'd like for someone to point me towards top schools so that he was challenged in school. We are in the Anoka School system and taking the AP classes and he challenges himself. He will be in college for 11th and 12th grade. My daughter did the same thing.

So it seems some of the comments are still spot on based off of these definitions. Some of the posters have "gifted" Kid's but non of them seem to have "profoundly gifted" children.

I have not yet tested my Kid's IQ's. For that matter, I have not tested mine either. E. Rex, what is the best way to method of testing?? I am curious??

[kuan]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

My boy is in the top 1% in math, science, and reading. He is #1 in his class ranking of 650 students mostly through hard work. I know there are kids that are much smarter than him in all three topics. I personally consider my kid "real smart" but not gifted. But according the link above, my Kid is "gifted". Heck, my daughter is also "Moderately gifted" according to the link (what us Minnesotan's call a pretty smart Kid).

Do you live in Lake Wobegon?

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

I did some more reading on gifted and IQ's. From Intellectual giftedness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Bright: 115+, or one in six (84th percentile)
• Moderately Gifted: 130+, or 1 in 50 (97.9th percentile)
• Highly gifted: 145+, or 1 in 1000 (99.9th percentile)
• Exceptionally gifted: 160+, or 1 in 30,000 (99.997th percentile)
• Profoundly gifted: 175+, or 1 in 3 million (99.99997th percentile)
• IQ Range Classification
  140 and over Genius or near genius
• 120-140 Very superior intelligence
• 110-120 Superior intelligence
• 90-110 Normal or average intelligence
• 80-90 Dullness
• 70-80 Borderline deficiency
• Below 70 Definite feeble-mindedness

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by kuan

Do you live in Lake Wobegon?

Almost. Garrison Keillor graduated from Anoka (so did I). I'm not fond of his politics though...

[ozzie679]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I did some more reading on gifted and IQ's. From Intellectual giftedness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Bright: 115+, or one in six (84th percentile)
• Moderately Gifted: 130+, or 1 in 50 (97.9th percentile)
• Highly gifted: 145+, or 1 in 1000 (99.9th percentile)
• Exceptionally gifted: 160+, or 1 in 30,000 (99.997th percentile)
• Profoundly gifted: 175+, or 1 in 3 million (99.99997th percentile)
• IQ Range Classification
  140 and over Genius or near genius
• 120-140 Very superior intelligence
• 110-120 Superior intelligence
• 90-110 Normal or average intelligence
• 80-90 Dullness
• 70-80 Borderline deficiency
• Below 70 Definite feeble-mindedness

It's absolutely amazing! On message boards, everybody's children are in the 99.9th percentile

[kuan]

Originally Posted by ozzie679

It's absolutely amazing! On message boards, everybody's children are in the 99.9th percentile

Telling you. We all must live in Lake Wobegon.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by ozzie679

It's absolutely amazing! On message boards, everybody's children are in the 99.9th percentile

I can only speak for my Kid's situation. My boy is 99.8% in his graduation class ranking (1 out of 650); That has nothing to do with IQ and more to do with "horse power". Since most students completely coast in high school (I'd guess 70% in my Kid's school), all you need to be is pretty sharp and work your butt off. Rankings are based off of weighted averages and are adjusted for how difficult the classes are. So a straight A student might be beat by 20 positions because my kid opted to take all AP based classes. Lot's can change in that ranking because he has 3 more years of high school. So if you are following my logic, I'd bet 10% of his 650 person class could be in the same position if they decided that they can only accept an A and they pushed themselves to do extra credit (even when they are getting an A-).

I don't think he is a genius or "gifted" (according to gifted website definition). But he is pretty darn smart and tests well in the math science and reading "MAP" tests (top 1% for the past several years) that the district hands out. But again, he tells me most students just want to get that test over with while my kid views it as competition. As a parent, I've worked hard to figure out ways have him become self motivated.

While I cannot speak for everyone else, I know my kid isn't in the 99.9% on the IQ test. But he is in the 99.8% in "horse power" at his school. If I had a choice, I'd take "sharp" (intelligence wise) and a whole lot of horse power over being in the 99.9% in brain power. In business, horse power (and being pretty smart) trumps brain power.

[kuan]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

While I cannot speak for everyone else, I know my kid isn't in the 99.9% on the IQ test. But he is in the 99.8% in "horse power" at his school. If I had a choice, I'd take "sharp" (intelligence wise) and a whole lot of horse power over being in the 99.9% in brain power. In business, horse power (and being pretty smart) trumps brain power.

So would I. The one thing in common that most talented people (or perceived talented) have is a strong desire to master whatever they're doing. Even top athletes and musicians have to put in years and years before they make a splash on the world stage. I'd be happy if my kid tries to fulfil his potential rather than make the grade by not trying.

[ozzie679]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I can only speak for my Kid's situation. My boy is 99.8% in his graduation class ranking (1 out of 650); That has nothing to do with IQ and more to do with "horse power". Since most students completely coast in high school (I'd guess 70% in my Kid's school), all you need to be is pretty sharp and work your butt off. Rankings are based off of weighted averages and are adjusted for how difficult the classes are. So a straight A student might be beat by 20 positions because my kid opted to take all AP based classes. Lot's can change in that ranking because he has 3 more years of high school. So if you are following my logic, I'd bet 10% of his 650 person class could be in the same position if they decided that they can only accept an A and they pushed themselves to do extra credit (even when they are getting an A-).

I don't think he is a genius or "gifted" (according to gifted website definition). But he is pretty darn smart and tests well in the math science and reading "MAP" tests (top 1% for the past several years) that the district hands out. But again, he tells me most students just want to get that test over with while my kid views it as competition. As a parent, I've worked hard to figure out ways have him become self motivated.

While I cannot speak for everyone else, I know my kid isn't in the 99.9% on the IQ test. But he is in the 99.8% in "horse power" at his school. If I had a choice, I'd take "sharp" (intelligence wise) and a whole lot of horse power over being in the 99.9% in brain power. In business, horse power (and being pretty smart) trumps brain power.

As someone who is a position to hire/fire employees, you are 100% correct. Employers hire sharp people...not computers. We buy those.