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Old 04-07-2015, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,789 posts, read 3,868,698 times
Reputation: 4296

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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
Confederates were despicable people. I have sympathy for a lot of separatist movements in the world (Quebec and Northern Ireland both come to mind) but as I understand the Civil War, it was the progressive, tolerant Northerners in a war against bigots. And no, it's not like the Southerners weren't aware of the inhumanity of slavery. The British Empire and Northern USA alike both got rid of slavery WAY before the South did. And neither of those other civilizations made a war (or even a debate) out of the issue.
You have a skewed view of history. There is no question that the horrors of slavery trump pretty much anything else going on at the time; but just because one side is worse doesn't make the other side "progressive, tolerant" and innocent. Say one man shoots someone while robbing him. A second man stalks a women, captures her, then tortures and rapes her over a period of weeks then burns her alive. The second man is clearly worse, but both are murderers.

Do a little research on the atrocities done to workers up north during the time. Especially so-called "free" blacks up north, or even European settlers of the "wrong" nationality (Italians, Irish, etc.). Work camps; company stores; workplace deaths. Technically the workers were "free", but most were in so much debt to their "non-owner" employers they spent their entire lives trying to work it off. What about the Native Americans? Stripped of their land, heritage, and children, then treated as sub-human.

There is no question that full-on slavery was worse, but that doesn't make the other side innocent.

And the idea that the "British Empire and Northern USA alike both got rid of slavery ... And neither of those other civilizations made a debate out of the issue." is beyond ridiculous. Lots of people (a.k.a., "scum of the earth") made a lot of money buying and selling other people. You think they just gave up their livelihood without even debating it? Slavery as an institution has extended back since before recorded history. Ending slavery in the British Empire and in the Northern USA was a long, hard, century-long battle involving setbacks, bitter court cases, and actual battles. Nothing about it was simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivory Lee Spurlock View Post
Is the Confederate Flag the only symbol of the South? Couldn't the Confederate symbol on Mississippi's state flag be replaced with something else that represents Southern Heritage, such as a sweet potato or a bowl of fried okra or a blue tick hound dog? Or a plate of sausage cream gravy oozing over some piping hot biscuits.

The Confederate Flag represents another country that was at war with the United States. That would be about the same as putting a German flag or symbol or a Mexican flag on say New Mexicos flag to represent that states Mexican heritage.
Seriously? Those are the best symbols you can come up with? I'm hoping you are being sarcastic. Obviously we should have a cow bell on the flag.

Ok, ok, no, not everyone is a MS State fan. In reality there is only one universal symbol of Mississippi: the Magnolia. It is the state tree, flower, and part of the motto. Ironically, however, the tree has already been on the flag: from 1861-1894 (i.e., during and immediately after the Civil War, back when it was "another country at war with the United States").

I'd personally go for a white magnolia flower centered in a field of blue. Simple, elegant, and representative of the state. But that may be too close to the "Bonny Blue" flag that flew over the Capitol immediately after succession.

Fixing the Mississippi flag will never be a simple matter. Any symbol that can be used to represent the history of the culture of the state can be tied in in some real or symbolic way to some atrocity or another. Cotton bowl? Harvested by slaves. Nothing works.
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:40 AM
 
Location: North Jackson
1,960 posts, read 3,147,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM1994 View Post
To be honest what's wrong with that?

Those people were protecting their property...slaves were property, expensive property that were the cornerstone of their livelihoods. Imagine someone taking your car without compensation, it's the same thing.
Good, so you are in agreement, that the confederate flag does represent oppression and subjugation of a people, and should not be a part of the state flag today.
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:50 AM
 
148 posts, read 196,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther View Post
Good, so you are in agreement, that the confederate flag does represent oppression and subjugation of a people, and should not be a part of the state flag today.
No. It was about brave and honorable men protecting themselves from having what was theirs confiscated. The only PEOPLE oppressed were the people who lost THEIR PROPERTY without due compensation. If anything, the injustice was done to white southerners who were robbed of their livelihoods and personal property.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:10 AM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,472 posts, read 17,596,480 times
Reputation: 30623
Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
Confederates were despicable people. I have sympathy for a lot of separatist movements in the world (Quebec and Northern Ireland both come to mind) but as I understand the Civil War, it was the progressive, tolerant Northerners in a war against bigots. And no, it's not like the Southerners weren't aware of the inhumanity of slavery. The British Empire and Northern USA alike both got rid of slavery WAY before the South did. And neither of those other civilizations made a war (or even a debate) out of the issue.
The Unionists were despicable people, they were committing genocide and ethnicide against various Native American tribes.

Then again Native American tribes were despicable people, they were comitting genocide against other Native American tribes.

Every single American, every single human on Earth, is descended from a group or groups who were 'on the wrong side' of history.

People are off base when getting hyped up about the dubious symbolism of flags and figures instead of focusing on, oh, I don't know, actual injustices and inequalities that exist right now. But no! We must persecute shapes and colors.

And if you really do think people who fly certain flags or display certain shapes define their ethics, give pause to observe them. Are they living up to the evil you think that flag or symbol represents? If no, leave them alone. If yes, be glad we live in a country that is free enough that people are able to display symbols that let you know they have a poisoned mind so you don't accidentaly give them business.

Last edited by ABQConvict; 04-07-2015 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,789 posts, read 3,868,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM1994 View Post
No. It was about brave and honorable men protecting themselves from having what was theirs confiscated. The only PEOPLE oppressed were the people who lost THEIR PROPERTY without due compensation. If anything, the injustice was done to white southerners who were robbed of their livelihoods and personal property.
Fascinating... someone who still thinks slavery has merit. I know people such as you still exist, but usually you aren't so open about it.

I'm curious... is this a race thing (i.e., you feel non-whites are of a lower class), or a capitalism thing, or both? After perusing some of your other posts I'm getting that you are an unapologetic white supremacist, and also a pure Capitalist.

Would you feel the same way if you or one of your relatives or friends was kidnapped against their will and sold into slavery? The purchaser didn't do the kidnapping, he/she just paid money and acquired "property". Or do you justify your opinions using double-standards?

Or, are you apologizing for the slave owners of the time only because slavery was legal then? Slavery is currently officially illegal in every country on the planet, although it still exists. Some estimates place more people in slavery today than at any time in human history.
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:28 AM
 
148 posts, read 196,541 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Fascinating... someone who still thinks slavery has merit. I know people such as you still exist, but usually you aren't so open about it.

I'm curious... is this a race thing (i.e., you feel non-whites are of a lower class), or a capitalism thing, or both? After perusing some of your other posts I'm getting that you are an unapologetic white supremacist, and also a pure Capitalist.

Would you feel the same way if you or one of your relatives or friends was kidnapped against their will and sold into slavery? The purchaser didn't do the kidnapping, he/she just paid money and acquired "property". Or do you justify your opinions using double-standards?

Or, are you apologizing for the slave owners of the time only because slavery was legal then? Slavery is currently officially illegal in every country on the planet, although it still exists. Some estimates place more people in slavery today than at any time in human history.
I am actually not a white supremacist, nationalist...separatist...yes, not supremacist. We are all equal but a rainbow is prettiest when the colors are separate and distinct, mix up a bunch of paint and it turns grey...or into the South Bronx.

For slavery, it is a capitalism thing. Right or wrong, those slaves were there's. A product that was legally for sale and they bought it. You can go on and on about the moral implications about any product. But some white dude in the Delta didn't do anything but purchase a product that was for sale.


If anything, be mad at the Africans. For kidnapping other tribes and selling them to white Europeans.

If slavery was to be ended (and it should have been) it should have happened in a phasing out fashion. First that no new slaves were to be purchased, and that all children born from a certain date were free. Then there should have been either a buy out in phases by the federal government, or a gradual transition from slaves into salaried workers. That way everyone wins. Slaves freed, planters don't lose their investment and livelihood, southern economy doesn't collapse. Then eventually, a quasi-independent black state should've been formed...probably in the uninhabited western territories somewhere...like where Seattle is now. Former slaves could migrate there and homestead, build their own society and either be autonomous under the USA or choose to be their own nation.

Life would be better for blacks, southern whites, and northern whites now sharing cities with the relatives of slaves.
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Old 04-07-2015, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,789 posts, read 3,868,698 times
Reputation: 4296
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM1994 View Post
I am actually not a white supremacist, nationalist...separatist...yes, not supremacist. We are all equal but a rainbow is prettiest when the colors are separate and distinct, mix up a bunch of paint and it turns grey...or into the South Bronx.

For slavery, it is a capitalism thing. Right or wrong, those slaves were there's. A product that was legally for sale and they bought it. You can go on and on about the moral implications about any product. But some white dude in the Delta didn't do anything but purchase a product that was for sale.

If anything, be mad at the Africans. For kidnapping other tribes and selling them to white Europeans.
An interesting perspective, and one I can't find fault with. Other than the paint metaphor... It's true, if you mix all the colors together you get a gray/brown, but that's not the point of mixing and diversity. Mix yellow and blue to get green. Add in more blue to the green to get teal. All sorts of beautiful colors can come out of selective mixing and matching. A rainbow isn't a fixed set of 7 distinct colors, it is a continuum of shades steadily progressing where one color mixes into the next. It's the same with human diversity and mixing of races.

Back away from the color mixing, it's easy to paint past actions with the morals of the present, but that isn't applicable to any discussion. The northern states did outlaw slavery earlier than the southern states, but the separation was only a few decades. Any condescension you apply to Mississippi in 1860 could be applied equally to any northern state a few years earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM1994 View Post
If slavery was to be ended (and it should have been) it should have happened in a phasing out fashion. First that no new slaves were to be purchased, and that all children born from a certain date were free. Then there should have been either a buy out in phases by the federal government, or a gradual transition from slaves into salaried workers. That way everyone wins. Slaves freed, planters don't lose their investment and livelihood, southern economy doesn't collapse. Then eventually, a quasi-independent black state should've been formed...probably in the uninhabited western territories somewhere...like where Seattle is now. Former slaves could migrate there and homestead, build their own society and either be autonomous under the USA or choose to be their own nation.

Life would be better for blacks, southern whites, and northern whites now sharing cities with the relatives of slaves.
An excellent proposal, but an unworkable. The problem is that, in spite of the rhetoric of the slavery apologists, slavery was not "on the way out" in the 1860's. At some point in the future, sure, but not anytime near the start of the Civil War. The south was so insistent on their states' right to keep slaves they took their ball and went home. Then the Sandlappers started eyeing that federally funded and owned pile of bricks out in their harbor, took at few shots at it, and there was no turning back.

Freeing of the slaves wasn't a moral or ethical decision, it was an act of war. It was an attempt by the US Commander in Chief to sow discord and ignite a rebellion within the rebellion. It freed the slaves in the rebellious states, but left the ones in the union states as property. (Trivia fact: 5 slave states remained with the Union during the Civil War, so 900,000 slaves in these states were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.)

Also, for what it's worth, a "quasi-independent black state" was formed. It was called Liberia.

Last edited by jwkilgore; 04-07-2015 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:32 PM
 
7,550 posts, read 9,390,005 times
Reputation: 8831
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM1994 View Post
No. It was about brave and honorable men protecting themselves from having what was theirs confiscated. The only PEOPLE oppressed were the people who lost THEIR PROPERTY without due compensation. If anything, the injustice was done to white southerners who were robbed of their livelihoods and personal property.
This is simply, unbelievably... ridiculous.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:50 PM
 
1,117 posts, read 1,027,477 times
Reputation: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffSanDimas View Post
Stop preaching. Nobody is changing the flag.


Believe it or not, some are PROUD of their history, not ashamed. If I was lucky enough to be a southerner, I know I would be.
People should be proud of their history, but using divisive symbols isn't something people should be proud of. The Confederate flag was brought up as a state flag to defy desegregation. It may have its place in history, but not to represent an entire state.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,679,387 times
Reputation: 5617
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther View Post
Good, so you are in agreement, that the confederate flag does represent oppression and subjugation of a people, and should not be a part of the state flag today.

Nope, Only a minority few have a problem with the Confederate flag. Its an American Symbol and has its place in History and todays World. Nothing to be ashamed off. Brave Americans who fought for what they believed in, which was States Rights not to be dictated by the North. Slavery was the "excuse" the North made to Justify a Civil War. It made a better sound byte. The North had Slaves too. .
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