Opposition to the Confederate flag in the MS flag (Greenville: houses, live in)

[Mr. Opinionated]

I cant help but see it as one-up-manship. It looks to me like it's really about catching up to all this minority protesting, pushing for attention and demanding recognition (Black Power!), while confederate flag anglocentrics feel shoved to the back burner amidst all the raving about Martin Luther King as blacks and sympathetic whites gush daily about Obama and racism. Everyone likes to feel special and wave a flag for their cause or ideals. I get that. But when it is a symbol of oppression or cruelty towards another group, then it is degraded as malicious in my opinion.

[JimGarrison]

There is nothing wrong with the flag. It represents our culture. I suppose folks like yourself would approve of America changing its flag from red, white and blue to a mixture of the rainbow colors.

Originally Posted by JacksonPanther

One thing white Mississippians are, is stubborn. They absolutely don't want anyone telling them to change the way they're doing something, even if the thing they're doing is completely wrong. Even if the thing they're doing costs them money, or jobs, or growth.

Mississippi is about 30% black, even with 95%black support, a significant number of whites would need to support the bill for the flag to change. So far that hasn't happened.

[motownewave]

Originally Posted by JimGarrison

There is nothing wrong with the flag. It represents our culture. I suppose folks like yourself would approve of America changing its flag from red, white and blue to a mixture of the rainbow colors.

But red and blue represent both parties!

[An Einnseanair]

Originally Posted by JimGarrison

There is nothing wrong with the flag. It represents our culture. I suppose folks like yourself would approve of America changing its flag from red, white and blue to a mixture of the rainbow colors.

As discussed above, the Confederate Battle Flag flew for about 3.5 years. It was designed and adopted as the Battle Flag in the fall of 1861, and the Confederacy surrendered in spring of 1865.

It wasn't even designed to represent a the Confederate States of America. There was a separate "peace" flag for that purpose; first the "Stars and Bars", then later the "Stainless Banner". The Battle Flag was designed specifically as a flag to use on the battlefield; to be as different as possible from the USA flag. It wasn't designed for or by anyone or anything to do with Mississippi.

So how, exactly, does the Confederate Battle Flag "represent our culture"? Are you planning on challenging the US army on the battlefield? That would be interesting to watch.

Any number of symbols would "represent our culture" far better than an obsolete battle flag. I'd go with a cotton bowl, magnolia blossom, or a magnolia tree. Other options better than the battle flag would include a Gulf shrimp, a live-oak tree, a Vardaman sweet potato, a delta catfish, a columned mansion, a southern yellow pine tree, or Elvis. Even an Elvis impersonator would be a better representation of our culture than the battle flag.



On the contrary, the US Flag does represent our culture for many reasons, so I'm assuming the "rainbow colors" comment was meant as a troll.

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by JimGarrison

There is nothing wrong with the flag. It represents our culture.

Exactly whose culture do you think the flag represents? Please be specific.

I suppose folks like yourself would approve of America changing its flag from red, white and blue to a mixture of the rainbow colors.

Are you just frustrated, because this makes no sense.
The American flag and the written documents behind it, represent everyone on this country. It wasn't always that way, but the Constitution gave is the legal means to change the meaning and ensure that any hypocrisy was dealt with, through protest and eventual amendments.

The confederate flag represents none of that, and thus represents only a portion of southerners. You might have had an argument that the flag stands purely for rebellion against federal power, but that argument was lost when you allowed and encouraged the flag to be used by racial separatists and terrorist organizations in the late 19th and 20th century.

[An Einnseanair]

The passing of actor James Best brings to mind a slight segue, as his most famous role is directly related to this topic. Earlier I asked, "So how, exactly, does the Confederate Battle Flag 'represent our culture'?", but no one answered. So I'll answer it myself.

When people talk about how the Confederate Battle Flag is "part our culture", they aren't talking about its use on the battlefield as a symbol of treason against the USA or its use by the KKK to intimidate blacks (for what it's worth, the KKK also used the Christian Cross as a symbol). They are talking about (as one example) its use by Bo and Luke Duke as a symbol of their good-natured "modern Robin Hood" fight against an oppressive and corrupt local government. Sing along if you are over 35:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRX4mlFi06A
(Bonus points if you hollered "Yeeee-eee Haw!" at the end)

It's not apparent from the intro, but there is a huge Confederate Battle Flag painted on the roof of their Dodge Charger (named The General Lee after the Confederate General). So it isn't a symbol for treason against the US government, it's a symbol of fighting against corrupt government power, see?

The flag was flown in battle as recently at WWII, but as a symbol of unity. Southerners and Yankees fighting side-by-side against the Nazis. It was a common feature at southern football games, specifically games with opponents from the north. Not racist, just a symbol at a sports game. Countless black band members at Ole Miss have proudly played the school's fight song (Dixie) while standing under the flag. And we can't forget how it was used as the backdrop for such southern rock bands as Lynyrd Skynyrd. Just a symbol of good-natured rockin' and partying. Sweet Home Alabama and such. Not evil at all.

To review, the flag was created in a rush during the Civil War as a way to tell our troops from their troops on the battle, not as a direct representation of slavery. It is a symbol of independence, of states' rights, of a way to honor the fallen soldiers of the Confederacy, of Good ol' boys fighting against the system, of 'Sweet Home Alabama' lyrics. Most modern southerners who use the flag are using it for these reasons. They are claiming a unique identity that is part of a whole, little different from African Americans wearing tribal-print clothing. Unfortunately, they are neglecting to consider one of the core tenets of the southern culture: Southern Hospitality.

Whatever the symbol means to whites, it means something completely different to people of the other race. It is a symbol of the people willing to die to keep their ancestors in chains. It is a symbol of the KKK, same as the Swastika is an indelible symbol of the evils perpetrated by the Nazis. It is a symbol of oppression, of hatred, of injustice. It is a symbol of Strange Fruit hanging from the Poplar Trees.


Whatever the meaning of the flag to my white ancestors, as a southerner I would never consider displaying a symbol that caused such emotional pain to a friend. And as I consider everyone of every race my friend until they remove themselves from that category, that means I would never display that symbol.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by jwkilgore

As discussed above, the Confederate Battle Flag flew for about 3.5 years. It was designed and adopted as the Battle Flag in the fall of 1861, and the Confederacy surrendered in spring of 1865.

It wasn't even designed to represent a the Confederate States of America. There was a separate "peace" flag for that purpose; first the "Stars and Bars", then later the "Stainless Banner". The Battle Flag was designed specifically as a flag to use on the battlefield; to be as different as possible from the USA flag. It wasn't designed for or by anyone or anything to do with Mississippi.

So how, exactly, does the Confederate Battle Flag "represent our culture"? Are you planning on challenging the US army on the battlefield? That would be interesting to watch.

Someone once in a thread was particularly insulted that the flag displayed in popular culture and on some state capitals was (OMG!!!) the BATTLE FLAG of the CSA as opposed to the CSA "stars and bars* national flag. As if this is a particular outrage. I don't get that. One can compare the Nazi Swastika national party flag from Germany WW2 to the German Bar Cross battle flag/insignia used by the Wehrmarcht in WW2. Which would you rather display? The bar cross is still in use I think. The swastika - public display is outlawed in Germany.

..of course a variation of the battle flag later became the national flag so that comparison isn't quite accurate. Unfortunetly public opinion and culture over the years has lead to the battle flag representing an institution, not the soldier. It's been mislabeled. It's the stars and bars that should be condemned. As we can condemn slavery and the foundations of that culture and the confederacy, we can still honor the men, most of who where not slave holders, who fought and died for the south in this conflict. Or...we can simply also pave over square miles of national cemetery land where these confederate dead lie.

[brownbagg]

it came up for a vote couple years ago and the public said no, that should be it

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by brownbagg

it came up for a vote couple years ago and the public said no, that should be it

No, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Some things shouldn't be left up to majority rule. I'm pretty sure that if we had a vote tomorrow in Mississippi, women would lose the right to vote.

[JimGarrison]

Man, I just wish we were allowed to maintain an average IQ to vote; of course that would mean the end of the democratic party.

But yes, I'm glad that we agree that there is nothing wrong with the Stars and Bars.