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Old 05-08-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: western montana
214 posts, read 528,390 times
Reputation: 86

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingcat2k View Post
So your solution is to have a society full of educators, protesters, bankers and sales people who all move stuff from China. Your assumption that all manufacturing involves unions is very false. There is a TON of manufacturing jobs (I'd guess at least 50% of all manufacturing but no basis) that has no union. Most of these jobs are in the South, not the rust belt. I believe the US needs to grow its manufacturing muscle but we are very short staffed. Qualified pipefitters, welders, machinists and heavy mechanics as well as engineers and scientists are in short supply. Most college graduates are in liberal arts and business which are in oversupply.

There is a lot wrong with the US. We have glorified bankers and lawyers to the detriment of people who actually produce a service or a tangible good. We have allowed baby boomers to filch saving for retirement but won't dare take a cut in payments or supplements to Medicare. Western Montana has become a park for out of staters who don't want much more than a Trader Joes on the corner and a folksy "quant" hardware store to supply Juan so he can fix their $2 million dollar McMansion.
Being an engineer, and an entreprenear, I like to solve problems with more simplicity than you. It's complicated the way you look at manufacturing, trying to solve the world's problems, and viewing it as a collective struggle.

Let me say something, Missoula people are somewhat creative in the job sense but I can tell they're pretty new at the services sector game. You have to understand how it works. That's why they find jobs that don't pay well. Part of this is social conditioning in the school systems and the way we are raised.

When you work for yourself you'll be wearing blue collar clothes and white collar clothes, just at different times.

Anyway, manufacturing isn't all that complicated, and you can do it on your own without waiting for southern companies or politicians to work out deals to rescue you. Because when it really comes down to it you really need a job that pays well for yourself. Not yourself and everybody else.

I was just over an inventor's house yesterday, I've known him for years, and he was trying to interest me in designing a solonoid part for a new product which he has the patents for. I would get a cut of the action. He wants it to be assembled in China though. So, these's are things I deal with sometimes.

A low cost start up can be done with a limited amount of cash.
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:18 PM
 
Location: western montana
214 posts, read 528,390 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last stop View Post
Very well said flyingcat2K. Jbetchtel: I have been in manufacturing for 25 yrs. Built plants, created jobs, ran union and non union plants, and frankly fired most that it did not work out for such as yourself - from the sounds of your opinion it's not for you. Fair enough but it's a honorable job to go to work and make things every day and a huge hole in the Missoula economy and job force. I have never felt demeaned and unless you have developed products / raised the money to manufacturer / built factories and hired hundreds of people- you cannot speak about the rewards it brings to many families and communities across our great nation.

I agree that security and working for a company (manufacturing or not) for 25-35 or more years is a thing of the past. Having more than one skill set or career is the norm these days.

One day in the near future the forerunner of the China explosion (Wally World) will feel the impact. When average blue collar folks do not have jobs it won't matter that shampoo and Great Value foods cost only $1 because they won't have the $1 because none of the products are being made in their town allowing them to have jobs.
The down side to all this flag waving is layoffs, layoffs, and more layoffs.

Even when I was a kid right out of high school Ford Motor Co. gave all new employees an 'awareness' class that getting into the assembly auto plants was not meant as a long term job and it wasn't recomended as a field to raise a family in because of market fluctuations and layoffs. That was the early 1970's, too.

What kind of manufacturing were you involved with?
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,298,679 times
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I was the Process Engineer / Design Engineer for a manufacturing plant in Texas. It could very well be in Montana. I only had 109 employee's and we cranked out $140,000,000. a year. Low impact on the area except 4 to 5 semi's coming and going each day. UPS and FEDEX stopping 3 or 4 times a day.

We started our employee's at $12 an hour. Full insurance (medical and dental), 401K matched one for one, after 90 days.

Something like that would fit well in Missoula.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:27 PM
 
189 posts, read 292,813 times
Reputation: 219
Regarding the dreary nature of factory work...

They don't pay you because you like it. If you liked it, you would do it for free. They pay you because it SUCKS.

It's called "work" and there's a LOT of people out there right now who need some.
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Old 05-12-2011, 04:49 PM
 
Location: C-U metro
1,364 posts, read 2,716,928 times
Reputation: 1159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbechtel View Post
Being an engineer, and an entreprenear, I like to solve problems with more simplicity than you. It's complicated the way you look at manufacturing, trying to solve the world's problems, and viewing it as a collective struggle.

Let me say something, Missoula people are somewhat creative in the job sense but I can tell they're pretty new at the services sector game. You have to understand how it works. That's why they find jobs that don't pay well. Part of this is social conditioning in the school systems and the way we are raised.

When you work for yourself you'll be wearing blue collar clothes and white collar clothes, just at different times.

Anyway, manufacturing isn't all that complicated, and you can do it on your own without waiting for southern companies or politicians to work out deals to rescue you. Because when it really comes down to it you really need a job that pays well for yourself. Not yourself and everybody else.

I was just over an inventor's house yesterday, I've known him for years, and he was trying to interest me in designing a solonoid part for a new product which he has the patents for. I would get a cut of the action. He wants it to be assembled in China though. So, these's are things I deal with sometimes.

A low cost start up can be done with a limited amount of cash.
You're the first person to refer to Nissan, Toyota and Honda as "southern" companies. I guess it's better than Japanese, which conjures up failed nuclear reactors these days. The majority of those firms placed their firms in the South without really considering the tax implications. What they wanted was a cheaper skilled workforce that was resistant to unions mixed with low cost land and good transport networks. That lead them to look a the the South.

As stated in other postings on the Montana forum, the problem with starting small is that someone may come along and complain that you make noise, have bad smells or too much traffic in and out of your business. This can happen just about anywhere as evidenced by Rehberg Ranch in Billings. That development started next to the Billings Gun Club and is under the main flight approach path to Billings International Airport. The reason nobody built there was because of the noise. Rep. Rehberg decided to build high end 250-450k homes there and people actually bought them. Now, they complain about the constant noise.

People complain about the Gibson Guitar factory in Bozeman and gravel pits in Belgrade knowing FULL well that those businesses are nearby and have industrial noise and smells. Yet, someone moved to the area, paid a lot of money and so we're supposed to give up our industry because they don't like it and lost their ever loving mind when they overpaid for a home next to those locations. Well, move somewhere else and use your brain next time. Wait, that means that someone else will likely overpay and complain too.
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:49 AM
 
Location: western montana
214 posts, read 528,390 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingcat2k View Post
You're the first person to refer to Nissan, Toyota and Honda as "southern" companies. I guess it's better than Japanese, which conjures up failed nuclear reactors these days. The majority of those firms placed their firms in the South without really considering the tax implications. What they wanted was a cheaper skilled workforce that was resistant to unions mixed with low cost land and good transport networks. That lead them to look a the the South.

As stated in other postings on the Montana forum, the problem with starting small is that someone may come along and complain that you make noise, have bad smells or too much traffic in and out of your business. This can happen just about anywhere as evidenced by Rehberg Ranch in Billings. That development started next to the Billings Gun Club and is under the main flight approach path to Billings International Airport. The reason nobody built there was because of the noise. Rep. Rehberg decided to build high end 250-450k homes there and people actually bought them. Now, they complain about the constant noise.

People complain about the Gibson Guitar factory in Bozeman and gravel pits in Belgrade knowing FULL well that those businesses are nearby and have industrial noise and smells. Yet, someone moved to the area, paid a lot of money and so we're supposed to give up our industry because they don't like it and lost their ever loving mind when they overpaid for a home next to those locations. Well, move somewhere else and use your brain next time. Wait, that means that someone else will likely overpay and complain too.
Right, there's that conflict between residential and commercial property, and how safe these facilities are. I don't think Montanan's in their wildest dreams think we could ever have a chance for an auto manufacturing plant here in the state, but I think what the owner's of this thread are talking about are these small 'widget' factories, if you've ever been in the Carolina's or the deep south, dotted along the landscape in smaller towns there. The south is notorius for having chemical spills in their water tables, but that's more industrial. Montana does have potential for light manufacturing that can blend in well with existing codes, but it would be small.

Light manufacturing would be like building PC boards.
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:42 AM
 
2,818 posts, read 3,740,400 times
Reputation: 3327
The outsourcing boogeyman is going to become a moot point in the years to come anyway. As robotics and controls begin to advance, neither Joe American nor Joe Chinaman will be getting a factory job. Technological advances in productivity will render assembly line work obsolete. Engineering of productions and means of production will remain, as well as construction/maintainence.
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,298,679 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
The outsourcing boogeyman is going to become a moot point in the years to come anyway. As robotics and controls begin to advance, neither Joe American nor Joe Chinaman will be getting a factory job. Technological advances in productivity will render assembly line work obsolete. Engineering of productions and means of production will remain, as well as construction/maintainence.
As a retired Process Engineer, I have to agree. But not in our life time.
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Old 05-15-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: western montana
214 posts, read 528,390 times
Reputation: 86
I think Missoula is pretty new at the services sector and still has a ways to go. I'm surprised people there aren't more creative in inventing jobs for themselves. If you travel to other cities that have been doing this a while longer, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Montana is a social experiment still in progress with the verdict still out,....but,.....

if I we're young again and lived there,.......

I think I'd start a modeling agency,.....with all the young, attractive people there,....feeds on their ego, so is easy to sell,....

Low cost start up,........need some knowledge of marketing,......a few photographers in your back pocket,......

Don't have to develop film anymore, like in the old days,.....

Your selling the headshots as part of portfollios,....Hhmm,.....

Later, you could feature your models in an 'all montana' callender,....

Start your own magazine,......

Most states just require you to make a 'reasonable' effort to find work for your selected candidates,.......

Once again, low start up,..... Hhmmm,......

Lots of money in it because they get busted in other states all the time,......

Hhhmmm. the phone numbers, too,.....

Beats factory work!

Last edited by Jbechtel; 05-15-2011 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:49 AM
 
17 posts, read 112,783 times
Reputation: 77
2010 stats:

Missoula employment information

Index Missoula Montana National
Income per capita $25,406 $23,515 $26,505
Median household income $44,942 $46,873 $54,595
Median household income owner occupied $69,319 $55,288 $63,664
Median household income renter occupied $28,053 $31,375 $35,685
Median earnings male $26,177 $34,093 $38,921
Median earnings female $16,675 $19,433 $23,115
Unemployment rate (2000) 7.5% 4.6% 4.0%
Unemployment rate (2010) 7.0% 7.3% 9.5%
Poverty level 19.7% 15.2% 12.3%

Lack of industry has much to do with these results.

Whether it's the service sector, creating a modeling agency, or opening your own business, the odds of creating as many jobs, income, and subcontractor work are slimmed compared to bringing one industry into the area. Many keep saying we must find a "best fit" for our "best place" and I agree with the historical enviro issues in Libby and Anaconda this needs close review. A close review does not mean a constant message to corporations that Missoula is not industrial friendly.
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