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Old 08-06-2010, 04:37 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,783,869 times
Reputation: 12828

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aragx6 View Post
So based on this you would be opposed to a reinterpretation of the 14th amendment that would strip away citizenship rights to children born in America to illegal immigrants then, yes? Because this issue is gaining traction with many in the Republican party.
Different arguement completely. Please don't diflect form this subject at hand. There is an illegal immagrant sub-forum where this is discussed in depth.
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Old 08-06-2010, 04:41 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,783,869 times
Reputation: 12828
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrizzle View Post
Wow, talk about someone not knowing how to pick their battles.

We are in 2 wars, wasting billions of dollars, a recession, unemployment rising, gas prices rising, small businesses dying, corperations on the verge of changing the internet into a class system..... and you complain about not just health care, but seat belts and having to buy insurance?????

Geeez. whats next... are you going to complain that the government puts up stop lights as well... cuz who are they to tell you when to stop, it should be YOUR choice right?

MO is fricken hypocritical. It doesn't want the government having any say in health care, yet we sure didn't have any uproar when the state government basically banned strip clubs in MO by stopping lap dances, alcohol, and nudity in them....

So many bigger issues, and this is what you complain about?
Seems as though there is much confusion in your posts between municipal, state and federal jurisdictions. You mix them all together in your examples as though they are one and they most certainly are not.

At the base of this arguement is the federal government exceeding its enumerated powers by forcing the purchase of a retail product of its choosing and the fining/criminalization of citizens who do not via the IRS.
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:28 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,320,422 times
Reputation: 29336
Default Good Job Missouri on the ObamaCare vote

Without reading or reading into all the various tangents this thread devolved into, hopefully our vote sends a message to Washington and all the other states that thuggery as politics doesn't work and we, the people, are determined to retain our freedoms.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:30 PM
 
886 posts, read 2,213,205 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkpoe View Post

Universal Healthcare shouldn't be an entitlement... it's only a privilege.
I disagree.... I feel respect for the health another person is not something that should be a "privilege" especially not in a developed country such as our own.

The average person misunderstanding the healthcare bill is not Obama or anyone elses fault, lawyer speak is what it is, the bill was up for anyone to read.

I agree it should be ready by everyone, but that is a different issue entirely, just look at the patriot act...
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:34 PM
 
886 posts, read 2,213,205 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by northbound74 View Post
Government run healthcare is always a bigger fiasco than private healthcare. Neither are perfect, but at least one respects basic freedom more than the other. Remember, this IS America. Let us do things the way we want and respect our vote and our intelligence. Just because we don't agree, it doesn't mean the other is stupid and uninformed. Get over it.
To those who don't like it, Europe is just a boat ride away. I'm sure their healthcare is perfect and flawless and fair and everyone dies when they're 150 in their sleep and the system is well-funded with no controversy....
If only the government actually accomplished something they set out to do instead of creating even bigger problems, perhaps more people would be on board with more government control. Oh, but then there's that pesky lack-of-freedom part.
Both parties are guilty in their own way.
People need to be taken care of, but the federal government is the worst possible source for healthcare or charity of any kind.

And whoever said that high Republican turnout did this needs to quit taking their talking points from the Star. That lame-lopsided rag should just give up and merge with move-on or something.

Good job, Missouri.
You think there was a high democratic turnout for it? I'd love to see any sources you have to back the claim.

Government the worst source of charity? Tell that to all the nations and people we provide support for... though i'd argue now is the time to support ourselves first.

Where is there lack of freedom in health insurance? The original plan that never passed didn't do away with private insurance, it was a basic public options for all, you could still pay higher for premium service if you wanted. The same way you don't have to go to the post office, you can still go to Fedex or UPS.

Cars come standard with seatbelts, you pay to get the airbags and other safety features. This was no different...
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:38 PM
 
886 posts, read 2,213,205 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
Seems as though there is much confusion in your posts between municipal, state and federal jurisdictions. You mix them all together in your examples as though they are one and they most certainly are not.

At the base of this arguement is the federal government exceeding its enumerated powers by forcing the purchase of a retail product of its choosing and the fining/criminalization of citizens who do not via the IRS.
Federal law, constitutionally trumps state law. If you want to retort try to break down what I said.

There is a constitutional argument for health care, and it can be found in the original bill of rights. The constitution is a living document, even its authors made comments that it must change with the times. I showed that, I gave you the supreme court decision that backed that the constitution is open for interpretation... that is the job of the judicial branch after all.

Maybe you can show something to support any argument you have against what I'm saying??
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:07 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,320,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrizzle View Post
Federal law, constitutionally trumps state law.
Not necessarily. Federal law is the foundation but in many cases, not the ceiling and state law can go above and beyond federal. Also, federal law may only be made pertaining to those powers enumerated in the Constitution for the federal government. All others are the purview of the states.
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:49 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,783,869 times
Reputation: 12828
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrizzle View Post
Federal law, constitutionally trumps state law. If you want to retort try to break down what I said.

There is a constitutional argument for health care, and it can be found in the original bill of rights. The constitution is a living document, even its authors made comments that it must change with the times. I showed that, I gave you the supreme court decision that backed that the constitution is open for interpretation... that is the job of the judicial branch after all.

Maybe you can show something to support any argument you have against what I'm saying??
The Commerce Clause does not include the failure to purchase retail products. This was one of the main complaints of Missourians by putting forth Proposition C and was similarly upheld by a Virginia judge when he refused to dismiss a lawsuit by the State of Virginina against the federal government and Obamacare.

Individuals are acknowledge to have been endowed by their creator LIFE, LIBERTY and the Pursuit of Happieness. When the federal government dictates what healthcare a citizen must use/recieve without allowing avenues outside of the government system mandated system (as all treatment guidlines will be dictated by the HHS Secretary rather then physicians and patients) they are infringing both on LIFE and LIBERTY (individual choice).
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:11 PM
 
3,326 posts, read 8,819,909 times
Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrizzle View Post
You think there was a high democratic turnout for it? I'd love to see any sources you have to back the claim.

Government the worst source of charity? Tell that to all the nations and people we provide support for... though i'd argue now is the time to support ourselves first.

Where is there lack of freedom in health insurance? The original plan that never passed didn't do away with private insurance, it was a basic public options for all, you could still pay higher for premium service if you wanted. The same way you don't have to go to the post office, you can still go to Fedex or UPS.

Cars come standard with seatbelts, you pay to get the airbags and other safety features. This was no different...
I didn't say high democratic turn-out, just that there were a lot more than just republicans voting for this. I highly doubt over 70% of the people that voted tuesday were just a bunch of republicans. Even if that were the case, if the dems cared enough, they would have shown up to oppose this measure. Apparently, democrats aren't too concerned about any of it.
Their loss, everyone else's gain.

Government charity is a continual train wreck that some keep trying to use even though it never, ever stays on the rails. It's also a cop-out to participating in real charity. It takes away the meaningful, human-to-human element. A faceless, soulless, generally uncaring government taking care of the less fortunate in this country. Very sad in my opinion.

The post office comparison makes no sense. You don't get fined if you choose not to use the post office and you aren't forced to use any such service, public or private. You can totally opt out of mail!!
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:01 PM
 
77,726 posts, read 59,889,067 times
Reputation: 49133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Travel View Post
I agree. Nice to see the people fighting this. I'll spend some time in a jail cell before I'll let my government force me to purchase ANYTHING.
Not that I agree with Obamacare (and won't be personally impacted by it)...but there are already mandatory financial items like car insurance and social security just to name 2.
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