Missouri's Proposition B Relating to Dog Breeders (St. Louis, Belle: to buy, buses)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by BoomBoxing

And for the record - yes I believe ALL animals should be treated humanely, even those we use for food.

And let me remind you, in some cultures that would include dogs.

[jifwittle]

Originally Posted by Kings Ranger

Also, we think puppies/animals in the USA are mistreated sometimes?
Go to China, where the HUMANS are mistreated.

... Which is completely irrelevant to a thread about a proposition relating to dog breeders.

[latetotheparty]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

And let me remind you, in some cultures that would include dogs.

which is certainly their perogative... but we are not talking about those cultures... we are talking about our own.... in which we are supposed to have compassion for our companion animals.....

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by latetotheparty

which is certainly their perogative... but we are not talking about those cultures... we are talking about our own.... in which we are supposed to have compassion for our companion animals.....

They're animals, the same as non-companion animals. Having had pets all my life, to include having helped raise several litters, I'm sensitive to the proper treatment of all animals, both domestic and wild. But 30 pages worth? Come on!

How about directing half that energy, thought and cncern to those other animals - the ones that walk upright?

[latetotheparty]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

They're animals, the same as non-companion animals. Having had pets all my life, to include having helped raise several litters, I'm sensitive to the proper treatment of all animals, both domestic and wild. But 30 pages worth? Come on!

How about directing half that energy, thought and cncern to those other animals - the ones that walk upright?

i have plenty of compassion for people in need...... probably more than most of the critics in this thread do.... and act on it routiinely....

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

They're animals, the same as non-companion animals. Having had pets all my life, to include having helped raise several litters, I'm sensitive to the proper treatment of all animals, both domestic and wild. But 30 pages worth? Come on!

How about directing half that energy, thought and cncern to those other animals - the ones that walk upright?

May I suggest venturing out beyond the Missouri forum here?
I highly recommend it!

[Kings Ranger]

Originally Posted by BoomBoxing

^You're right Curmudgeon. It IS inconceivable that in this day and age puppy mills are even debatable. I thought we were better as a society than that. Very ironic too that it's the God fearing conservatives [farmers??] who supposedly have such big hearts who turn a blind eye to the egregious abuse of animals[why would farmers harm their own animals if it is their livelihood?]. Instead they are grasping at straws trying desperately to make weak "slippery slope" arguments because the proposition was promoted by people they pereceive as "not like them".[I'll just drive a tractor through that big open mind of yours...] It's very disheartening to say the least. But so long as proponents of treating animals humanely are labelled as "extremists" and "radicals" by those who have other agendas, we will not get anywhere with this.

And for the record - yes I believe ALL animals should be treated humanely, even those we use for food. People who have a lot of compassion for animals often are the ones who have the biggest compassion for people too.

I agree about the morality issues that might be in question for debating this. All animals SHOULD be treated humanely.

But, HSUS is trying to get its foot in the door while it launches an offensive on Missouri. They've hired 2 lobbyists in St. Louis which will be a major factor in future Missouri legislation

Slippery slope? HSUS has inhitibited many agricultural industries in a few states, and they have no right to interfere with American occupations.
A large special-interests group shouldn't be able to change something so important in a state.

If it affected YOU and your ability to make money and survive wouldn't you be concerned?

Why are you all fighting so hard to keep the legislation the same?
I'm against them taking some of the legislation out, but the limit is the main concern, also the ability for "dog" to be substituted with "pig" or "cow"

I am all for criminalizing puppy mills, make it a felony, or something that actually sounds intimidating as opposed to a misdemeanor

If PETA and HSUS etc weren't so....assertive about getting rid of meat, things like this would pass more easily.

It's the fact that the HSUS wants to end animal agriculture.
Why should I be forced to eat vegetables just because a vegetarian special interest group gets a law passed?

[MoBornSouthernBelle]

Originally Posted by latetotheparty

shelters don't breed puppies for sale, so the comment about genetic testing for shelter dogs is moot.... they are already here and in need of good homes.....

Shelters may not breed dogs and cats, but they do sell them to the public, and they should test before selling them to buyers.

Why should any seller of a dog be exempt from the same rules as any other seller, be he a breeder/seller or a shelter/seller? A seller is a seller, and shelters should not be exempt from following 'the rules' that others want breeders to follow.

Also, I don't know of any breeders who ship dogs in from other countries to sell in US shelters....THAT should be a crime!!!


shelters also don't "sell" dogs... the fees paid are to HELP cover expenses for vaccinations, spay/neuter, microchipping, daily care, heartworm preventative, flea and tick preventative, treatment of illness and injury... the list goes on.....

Shelters do sell animals. Money is exchanged, and that is a sale.
Shelters don't give animals away. They charge money for what they sell - the animal.

Any seller is going to have expenses, so what is the problem with breeders selling their animals for money? Nothing in my opinion. The problem is, some people don't want anyone selling animals, except for the 'exempt "rescue" groups' who want to monopolize the dog selling industry. They want to control all animal transactions.

the comment about human rights abuses in China is irrelevant to the subject at hand...... if that is your thing, then by all means, get busy with it..... I choose to focus my energies on issues in my own backyard.....


That is the problem, many 'rescuers' have no compassion for the humans around them. They don't want to get that involved with people (humans), because that really takes effort on the part of the person helping out. Helping people can involve a long-term commitment, involving your emotions, your time, and sometimes your money.

Animals are a short-term endeavor: locate a dog to take in, prepare him for the sale, locate a buyer, and send him out the door (after collecting the money, of course). Pat yourself on the back, and do it again.


never said the lack of testing and certification made a breeder a criminal... never even implied it.... BUT it is this kind of indiscriminate breeding that has greatly exacerbated the issues of hip dysplasia, liver shunts, luxating patellas, chf, poor temperament, homzygenous merles having hearing and vision issues.... this list goes on, too.....

It is implied continuously that breeders are puppy mills, and unethical because they sell animals.

if a dog is known to have one or more of these issues, it should not be bred under any circumstances..... and some of these issues don't even show up until a dog is a year or 2 or more old..... you think a byb or a miller cares?? heck no, they just see the $$$ those cute little puppies will make for them, with no regard to how they are polluting the gene pool..... or what they are setting those puppies and their owners up for later on down the road.....


That's what breeder and buyer education is all about....
No one wants to sell an animal that is a problem for anyone else, because it is a problem for the breeder, too. And...everyone that buys an animal from a breeder does not breed the dog they buy, most people alter their pets.

oh... and prob b makes it a criminal offense to maintain breeding dogs in unsanitary and inhumane conditions.... granted, it is just a misdemeanor, but ya' gotta start somewhere..... and this is applicable whether a breeding facility is licensed or unlicensed.....


Not a soul wants to see any animal kept in poor conditions.
BTW...Prop B doesn't apply only to breeding facilities, it applies to any individual dog owned by any individual person.


the comment about an educated buying public is right on ... and that is another avenue being pursued..... but you know as well as i do.... people walking by those cute little puppies in the pet store or seeing their pictures on the internet lose all perspective and the miller and byb'er is rewarded again......


It is no crime for anyone to buy a dog from a pet store or online.
It is not a crime to sell dogs in a pet store or online, or any other avenue....yet.
It will be if the radical animal activists have their way.

And about rewards....shelters and peta/h$u$, and other such groups, make a point to collect their 'rewards' by selling dogs, raids, emotionally charged campaigns. I'm still waiting to see one even one of these groups try to help and assist someone having problems, instead of ostracizing them. But, that would cost....money and time.

At least, breeder/sellers work for their money.

..

[MoBornSouthernBelle]

Originally Posted by latetotheparty

which is certainly their perogative... but we are not talking about those cultures... we are talking about our own.... in which we are supposed to have compassion for our companion animals.....

Humans come before animals. Period.

[MoBornSouthernBelle]

Originally Posted by Kings Ranger

I agree about the morality issues that might be in question for debating this. All animals SHOULD be treated humanely.

But, HSUS is trying to get its foot in the door while it launches an offensive on Missouri. They've hired 2 lobbyists in St. Louis which will be a major factor in future Missouri legislation

Slippery slope? HSUS has inhitibited many agricultural industries in a few states, and they have no right to interfere with American occupations.
A large special-interests group shouldn't be able to change something so important in a state.

If it affected YOU and your ability to make money and survive wouldn't you be concerned?

Why are you all fighting so hard to keep the legislation the same?
I'm against them taking some of the legislation out, but the limit is the main concern, also the ability for "dog" to be substituted with "pig" or "cow"

I am all for criminalizing puppy mills, make it a felony, or something that actually sounds intimidating as opposed to a misdemeanor

If PETA and HSUS etc weren't so....assertive about getting rid of meat, things like this would pass more easily.

It's the fact that the HSUS wants to end animal agriculture.
Why should I be forced to eat vegetables just because a vegetarian special interest group gets a law passed?

Rated positively by MoBornSouthernBelle....thanks!!!