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Sorry. You know I love you but I think the following post is right on from what I see here
Thank you, and I adore you, too....but heres the thing.....not all Missourians can be lumped into one category or another.
We are a pretty complex lot.
I didnt get to vote on this as my primary residence is still Florida.
I dont agree with what some of the posters here have said, there seems to be quite a bit of ax-grinding going on by some of the more vociferous ones, but at the end of the day, they are fellow Missourians, and I respect their opinions, even if I dont agree with them.
By the way, I skimmed over some parts of this thread I hadn't read in a while and have discovered some (unintentionally) hilarious quotes from the anti-prop B crowd that completely makes my point. That is, the opposition has little to do with the actual Prop B, but rather their personal ideology. Someone implied that passage would give the humane society rule over the state and they would ban hunting. Someone implied that this bill is immoral because the Bible says we humans rule over animals. Someone said this bill will cause us all to be forced to become vegetarians. Someone said this the result of the Obama healthcare bill. I wouldn't dare embarass those posters by quoting, but dig through this thread - it's all there.
Thank you, and I adore you, too....but heres the thing.....not all Missourians can be lumped into one category or another.
We are a pretty complex lot.
I didnt get to vote on this as my primary residence is still Florida.
I dont agree with what some of the posters here have said, there seems to be quite a bit of ax-grinding going on by some of the more vociferous ones, but at the end of the day, they are fellow Missourians, and I respect their opinions, even if I dont agree with them.
I respect the opinions of others.
What I see here is that there is generally no discussion with Missourians if you happen to disagree with them...
Closed minds, closed hearts.
Have a great day!
Last edited by World Citizen; 04-01-2011 at 12:36 PM..
Originally Posted by latetotheparty shelters don't breed puppies for sale, so the comment about genetic testing for shelter dogs is moot.... they are already here and in need of good homes.....
Shelters may not breed dogs and cats, but they do sell them to the public, and they should test before selling them to buyers.
Why should any seller of a dog be exempt from the same rules as any other seller, be he a breeder/seller or a shelter/seller? A seller is a seller, and shelters should not be exempt from following 'the rules' that others want breeders to follow.
uuummmm ... if you will recall, my comments on genetic testing for breeding dogs were with the idea of helping to weed out genetic issues common to the breed at hand BEFORE the dog is bred and spreads the issue to another generation.... please try to keep facts straight.....
shelter animals are NOT bred for sale.....
Also, I don't know of any breeders who ship dogs in from other countries to sell in US shelters....THAT should be a crime!!!
I have NO idea what this means or where you are going with this comment.....
shelters also don't "sell" dogs... the fees paid are to HELP cover expenses for vaccinations, spay/neuter, microchipping, daily care, heartworm preventative, flea and tick preventative, treatment of illness and injury... the list goes on.....
Shelters do sell animals. Money is exchanged, and that is a sale.
Shelters don't give animals away. They charge money for what they sell - the animal.
Any seller is going to have expenses, so what is the problem with breeders selling their animals for money? Nothing in my opinion. The problem is, some people don't want anyone selling animals, except for the 'exempt "rescue" groups' who want to monopolize the dog selling industry. They want to control all animal transactions.
shelters do not sell animals with the goal of profit-making.... and for that matter, neither do responsible and reputable breeders... BIG difference in that and the typical miller or byb....
and how are you so certain of the motives of ALL rescue groups?? have you talked to each and every person involved personally?? have you ever even involved yourself in animal welfare??
the comment about human rights abuses in China is irrelevant to the subject at hand...... if that is your thing, then by all means, get busy with it..... I choose to focus my energies on issues in my own backyard.....
That is the problem, many 'rescuers' have no compassion for the humans around them. They don't want to get that involved with people (humans), because that really takes effort on the part of the person helping out. Helping people can involve a long-term commitment, involving your emotions, your time, and sometimes your money.
Animals are a short-term endeavor: locate a dog to take in, prepare him for the sale, locate a buyer, and send him out the door. Pat yourself on the back, and do it again.
guess you missed my post prior to this one.... i have included it here for your edification.....
never said the lack of testing and certification made a breeder a criminal... never even implied it.... BUT it is this kind of indiscriminate breeding that has greatly exacerbated the issues of hip dysplasia, liver shunts, luxating patellas, chf, poor temperament, homzygenous merles having hearing and vision issues.... this list goes on, too.....
It is implied continuously that breeders are puppy mills, and unethical because they sell animals.
no, it is not.... i wrote 2 rather lengthy posts on RESPONSIBLE AND REPUTABLE breeders and the differences between them and the more common byb and puppymill .... it is just a sad fact that the responsible and reputable breeders are in the tiny minority of breeders overall.....
if a dog is known to have one or more of these issues, it should not be bred under any circumstances..... and some of these issues don't even show up until a dog is a year or 2 or more old..... you think a byb or a miller cares?? heck no, they just see the $$$ those cute little puppies will make for them, with no regard to how they are polluting the gene pool..... or what they are setting those puppies and their owners up for later on down the road.....
That's what breeder and buyer education is all about....
No one wants to sell an animal that is a problem for anyone else, because it is a problem for the breeder, too. And...everyone that buys an animal from a breeder does not breed the dog they buy, most people alter their pets.
how is a congenitally ill or malformed puppy a problem for the typical byb or miller?? for a reputable breeder .... absolutely it is a problem, which is why a reputable breeder takes every precaution possible to minimize the chances of such a thing happening... but as we all know, there are no guarantees in life...... and the reputable breeder stands behind every single puppy in every single litter produced.... can you say the same about the byb or miller??
there are still many many people who for whatever reason, do not alter their pets.... particularly from about here on down through the southern and southeastern states.....
oh... and prob b makes it a criminal offense to maintain breeding dogs in unsanitary and inhumane conditions.... granted, it is just a misdemeanor, but ya' gotta start somewhere..... and this is applicable whether a breeding facility is licensed or unlicensed.....
Not a soul wants to see any animal kept in poor conditions.
BTW...Prop B doesn't apply only to breeding facilities, it applies to any individual dog owned by any individual person.
REALLY?? where do you see that?? Because I sure don't.... although I'll grant that my eyes are probably quite a bit older than yours and may have missed it in the language as posted on the Secretary of State's website......
the comment about an educated buying public is right on ... and that is another avenue being pursued..... but you know as well as i do.... people walking by those cute little puppies in the pet store or seeing their pictures on the internet lose all perspective and the miller and byb'er is rewarded again......
It is no crime for anyone to buy a dog from a pet store or online.
It is not a crime to sell dogs in a pet store or online, or any other avenue....yet. It will be if the radical animal activists have their way.
And about rewards....shelters and peta/h$u$, and other such groups, make a point to collect their 'rewards' by selling dogs, raids, emotionally charged campaigns. I'm still waiting to see one even one of these groups try to help and assist someone having problems, instead of ostracizing them. But, that would cost....money and time.
At least, breeder/sellers work for their money.
No it is not a crime.... although it is VERY foolish and contributes directly to the millers.....
shelters, rescues and local humane societies help people down on their luck EVERY SINGLE DAY.....
reputable breeders DO work for their money.... the others... not so much... they let the dogs do it for them..... until they can't anymore and then they are killed or dumped....
latetotheparty,
Testing should be done by anyone who sells, if it is required of breeders, it should be required of shelters. There is no difference who sells the dog, genetic testing is about health, and selling any dog with a health issue, is an issue. So, if breeders should test before selling, so should shelters. Keep the facts straight and level the playing field a little. The way you state it, genetic testing is only useful before breeding a dog, but, it can also be used to tell the status of a dog's current health and sometimes its future health.
My comment about shelters shipping dogs from other countries for sale in the US....google it.
Shelters absolutely do sell animals to make a profit.
The term non-profit does not mean no profit is being made, but that all monies are being accounted for use in the organization and not benefiting a single owner or group. That money can be used, as in the case of those large groups we all know, for lobbying in cities, states and Washington, DC, for salaries, or any other expense. Unfortunately, it is seldom used for animal care, or assisting people who are having a hard time to keep their animals. Ownership is the difference between for-profit and not-for-profit organizations.
I certainly don't know ALL people working in the 'rescue' world, that would be impossible. I do know many, and I know the types that get involved in them. I have found that the lower on the totem pole someone is, the more likely that person is actually doing a good deed. The higher one goes, the more important the money and the power become. The more important the money and the power become, the less important the cause is. I am not saying there are not good people involved, I am saying there are MANY people who are not really in it for the animals, but for their own gains, be that glory, money or power.
I am involved in animal 'welfare'.
Testing and certification are good things, and in my opinion should be left up to the breeder and the purchaser, and the animal activists should stand aside.
Again...education is the key.
It is implied that breeders are a terrible lot, again and again.
Dogs, just like humans, have many diseases, and they live full and happy lives with them. Genetic testing will not address most of these things.
Polluting the gene pool??? Really, NO breeder of quality dogs is going to introduce this type of dog into his or her breeding program. Breeders have worked for decades, and centuries to clean up their bloodlines, and create the most perfect animal in their power.
As far as people who are breeding for a living....it is their decision which tests they do, not the government, nor some animal group. That should be left up to the demands of an informed public...which, by the way, is becoming more informed all the time.
All homozygous merles are not afflicted with hearing and vision issues...just so you know. And other health issues, just because they are carried genetically do not express themselves and cause problems.
Altering animals....a personal choice.
Should NOT be one made by government, or radicals.
Helping others every day?
No, I don't see it, not even once a month. A real shame.
And, again....there is no crime in anyone breeding and selling dogs, or cats, or horses, cow, goats, etc.
Last edited by MoBornSouthernBelle; 04-01-2011 at 01:06 PM..
I would love to see you cite some specific examples of that!
Let's start with the definition.
mal·ice
[mal-is] Show IPA
–noun
1.
desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness.
Okay, anyone who has worked with enough animals has met a number of them who do wish to 'inflict injury, harm' on us. Sometimes, this is because of fear, congenital or physical issues or some other underlying and unknown disorder. Animals react to things, but they also think and can do harm to us with purposeful intent.
Last edited by MoBornSouthernBelle; 04-01-2011 at 01:16 PM..
You think an animal -- a dog, a lion, a cow-- can have a desire to do anything? Desire is a very high-level concept. Purposeful intent? Really?
Honestly if you think animals are capable of such incredible high-order thinking I'm stunned that you're not on the other side of the issue.
Thankfully, I am not.
Animals are very perceptive, and very cunning.
Desires, both humans and animals have them. The desire to eat, sleep, be loved, touched. Can an animal be mean? Yes, Can an animal cause us harm, and do so with purpose and thought? Yes, especially the ones who hunt prey.
Ever have a horse decide to kick you?
That kick is not instinct, but a choice that horse decides to make.
A dog may bite you. A well-trained dog, may consider it is a bad idea.
There are lots of incidences when animals choose to do these things. I'm sure you can think of a few yourself.
ps...the reason I am not on the other side: I believe humans come before animals.
Last edited by MoBornSouthernBelle; 04-01-2011 at 01:19 PM..
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