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Ajf: If you disagree, fine. I just thought this conversation would be the cyber equivalent of a front porch chat between neighbors and nothing more than that. That's exactly what it was until you re-entered the conversation with the ultra condescention after you asked what our thoughts were.....
"Southwest St. Louis County is absolutely not a part of the Ozarks, that is really pushing the limits beyound where they belong."
That was all you had to say.... I didn't see any need for you to reiterate it 5+ times in your last two posts. I'm well aware you're not 100% convinced.
"THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE SOUTH AT ALL!"
Nobody above said it was... chill....
"St. Louis is a solidly Midwestern city, any inclination of Ozark or Southern culture here is absurd and untrue."
Gosh, I am so sorry...I mistook the OP's question about the 'lay of the land' not the culture, etc. To me the Ozark 'region' does in fact 'begin' in middle Missouri. Notice, I said, 'begins'. Not the speech, not the culture, not the dress, not the influence of any ethic groups. In fact nothing to do with anything except the 'appearance' of what you observe in the lay of the land. A name can be attached to anything.
We are being asked a question and some of us have answered. These are 'our' thoughts. Nothing written in 'stone' or mountain. Some of us feel that the Ozarks begin in certain counties of this state. We feel this. Doesn't make us right nor does it make us wrong. Just our opinions. And that what was asked for.
Right now, I am going to prepare dinner and will come back later to see just where the Ozarks are being moved to next.
Southwest St. Louis County is absolutely not a part of the Ozarks, that is really pushing the limits beyond where they belong. There is zero Ozark culture in any of St. Louis County. Those so-called hills that you see in Southwest St. Louis County are the Mississippi and Missouri River bluffs, not the Ozarks. St. Louis and ST. Louis County are all 100% Midwestern. The Ozarks are south of St. Louis and don't encompass any of mid-Missouri, maybe the very southernmost parts of it...they begin below it. St. Louis County is not a part of the Ozarks at all. Zero. zilch.
I disagree, Forest 44, Tyson Research, Lone Elk Park and even Castlewood Park aren't anywhere near the 'Ole Miss or Big Muddy (relatively speaking). That terrain connects to High Ridge in Jefferson county and then continues on down into St. Francis county. That terrian is pure Ozark Hill county, the foothills if you will. The culture may not be Ozark hillbilly but the terrain sure fits the bill. If you want to see some proof take a trip on old 30 in Jeff County sometime...they don't call it High Ridge for nothing!
Trivia note: House Springs MO, just north of High Ridge was the sight of an indian massacre back in the early 1800's...here is a link to the story.
Yea know .. this is funny and maybe bad post ..but I gotta tell ya .......
ALL OF MY LIFE .. I was told (by my Grannie ..who knew everything!!)
Ozarks are - where the people knew how to live .. bootlegger was a regular happening ....
and grandmas and grandpas still were safe enough to rock in the rocking chairs on the porch ............ people hunt for dinner and live life simple .......thats what the Ozarks are .. oh and the hillbillies live there too
I've been doing research...several maps I've found are now arguing otherwise...they are arguing the Salem Plateau extends to just the Southwestern corners of St. Louis....this could make some sense...maybe I should've reestablished the thread...where does Ozark culture begin to emerge? For me...the answer to question is the 15 county region, but it could be other places too...I'm done ranting and raving...had to do some research to see what these hills actually were. Some people disagree at that the Springfield Plateau is truly part of the Ozark regions, including professor Tom Beveridge of UM-Rolla, but I dunno. I think now after doing a lot of research, i myself have a better grasp on the terrain...what about where true Ozark culture starts to emerge? For me, I generally tend to notice Ozark culture begin to emerge around Rolla. It is very strong the areas of Poplar Bluff. Some people like to claim the Ozarks even extend to cover a parts of Southern Illinois, NE Oklahoma, and SE Kansas. The only indicator I've seen about Ozark culture is a source I've found claiming that much of the Ozarks in Missouri lost a lot of their Southerness around the Civil War..i will present that source if necessary. But let's shift the topic to where does true Ozarkian CULTURE begin to emerge in Missouri? And we can continue discussing the terrain. It turns out I may have been incorrect about the OZark terrain not beginning outside of St. Louis, but again, there are conflicting sources out there, and the river bluffs do resemble the terrain, so who can blame me. I guess it is mountainous terrain now that I think about it. A lot of people don't think the Boston Mountains of Arkansas are the true Ozarkian plateaus. Wikipedia describes the Ozarks as a chain of Mountains covering most of Southern Missouri and extreme Northwestern and North Central Arkansas. The SHawnee Forest in Illinois resembles the Ozarks fairly strongly, but ironically this forest is also among the Mississippi and Ohio River bluffs...more thoughts...please respond to this post..not the opening one. This is one I cannot figure out through sources or myself...my mouth (and fingers) remain off the keyboard now while others answer.
I guess I don't get the problem of WHERE they start, or stop....seems to me no matter what map you have, or who says it, or what was said, sometimes friends just need to agree to disagree. JMHO.....please everyone, shake hands and make up!!
Call it the gateway to the Ozarks or something else or whatever--I just know the area around Castlewood State Park and Six Flags is shore purty!
If the Ozark landscape begins just below St. Louis, the Ozark culture for certain does not. You have to go further south for that. If there were Ozark culture and hillbillies on the outskirts of St. Louis, I would've noticed. I don't even typically see signs promoting Ozark culture until i start to get close to Rolla.
May I refer all those interested in the subject concerning the Ozarks to 'The Ozarks Land and Life', a volume written by Milton D. Rafferty 1980, by the University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, Publishing Division of the University, second printing 1985. This book is available in both Hard cover and a soft cover edition.
Milton D. Rafferty was Head of the Dept. of Geography and Geology in Southwest Missouri State University. He is also the author of 'Historical Atlas of Missouri.
In the aforementioned book concerning the Ozarks, the reader will find this book an easy and enjoyable reference to Ozark history and culture. Separate chapters cover landforms and geology, weather, and climate, the Indians of the Ozarks, the early and later stages of settlement, the Civil Was and its aftermath, transportation and communication, mining, agriculture, the lumber industry, and recreation and tourism.'
The book does illustrate the many counties in the four states that make up the region known as The Ozarks.
Briefly, 'the east the boundary is the Mississippi River, the north boundary extends just beyond the Missouri River to include a narrow strip of ravines and ridges that etch the northern bluffs. The Black River parallels the southeaster n boundary. The southern boundary follows along the low hills that parallel the north side of the fertile Arkansas River valley. The western boundary is not as well defined.' This book includes many interesting and seldom known facts. Any person interested in this subject will enjoy adding this book to their collection.
I have owned the soft cover edition since 1985 when it was published. Recommend it highly.
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