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Old 12-16-2012, 01:55 AM
 
8,289 posts, read 13,514,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseOwlSaysHoot View Post
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this assertion is soe woefully out of touch with reality, it is laughable.

The Republican party has veered hard to right and are running moderates out of their party. This isn't up for debate, it is a fact. Arlen Specter, Olympia Snowe, Charlie Christ, Michael Bloomberg, Michael Steele, Richard Lugar, Colin Powell, Lisa Murkowski... the list goes on... all have been called RINOs and either forced out of the party or out of office by hard right wingers.

The Republican platform is being dictated by blowhard extremist like Rush Limbaugh who have to convince people that it is actually the Dems who are moving to the left to make their own out of touch views palatable.

If Richard Nixon were around today, he would be far to the left of any republicans - he may even be to left of Obama on many policies. Nixon created OSHA as well as the EPA, NOAA and other environmental regulations including the Clean Water act. He endorsed the Equal Rights Amendment and implemented federal Affirmative Action Programs. He ended the draft and negotiated for peace in Vietnam.

What most people consider Obama's most liberal, socialist policy, Obamacare, was based on Republican ideas. The individual mandate was originally suggested by the right wing orignization, The Heritage Foundation, and proposed in bills by Republican senators including Chuck Grassley and Orin Hatch. And everyone knows Mitt Romney's influence on the legislation.

As for Missouri, I think it could go back to being more of a swing state. The success of electing Dems to local office has already been pointed out. Anyone who thinks that race didn't factor in to the Presidential election in the Ozarks and rural Missouri is willfully ignorant.
Excellent post and very truthfull in context. Obama recently did a interview where he said he would be to the "right" of Nixon based on his policies. What most conservatives / Tea Partiers don't realize is how far to the right they have moved over the years.
As for your state I can't comment on it politically because I barely know it but mine seems to be turning "blue". I thought MO would be "blue" this election cycle since the "08" Presidential election was close.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:28 AM
 
3,326 posts, read 8,819,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiRob View Post
Excellent post and very truthfull in context. Obama recently did a interview where he said he would be to the "right" of Nixon based on his policies. What most conservatives / Tea Partiers don't realize is how far to the right they have moved over the years.
As for your state I can't comment on it politically because I barely know it but mine seems to be turning "blue". I thought MO would be "blue" this election cycle since the "08" Presidential election was close.
What Obama thinks of himself and what he really is are often two different things. A combination of Nixon and Carter seems about right, with FDR and Wilson thrown in, policy-wise anyway... not a compliment. The current moment certainly has that 70's feel.
There may be a little recoil going further to the right, but it's only a reaction to the hard left leftists have already made.
I know that since Obama has taken office, I've become almost completely libertarian. Let states choose whether or not they want to be conservative, liberal, socialist, libertarian, or somewhere in between. This country is big enough for all of us. You know, diversity even in politics. The feds should stay tiny with a reasonably strong defense to protect our our freedoms to do as such. All encompassing federal laws should be minimal to provide enough common ground for things like ease of interstate commerce.
Oh yeah, Missouri is still in play for a democratic candidate that wants to return to moderation. Obama is not that guy. One theory goes that for policies he hasn't played his leftist hand on, he's just waiting for a Supreme Court with a majority in his favor.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,064,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbored198824 View Post
First of all I may have been "stirring the pot", just a bit . All in good fun! I disagree about the oklahoma/texas accent to an extent when it comes to southwest Missouri. It honestly just depends what part of southwest Missouri you are in. Joplin has got a strange Oklahoma/Kansas vibe going on. The majority of the Ozarks feel much more like Arkansas than Kansas, though. I also say in all honestly the Ozarks south of 144 are more southern feeling than most places in Oklahoma. I talk to tourists from Oklahoma every day and they don't have near the accent most locals have. Also If Branson "might as well be part of Arkansas", then St. Louis...."might as well be part of Illinois." Kansas City "might as well just be part Kansas." If you would take Kansas City and Saint Louis out of the Equation....Missouri would be a completely different state....both of these cities are barely in Missouri, and not a good representation of the state as a WHOLE. You use this logic to discredit the southern characteristics of Missouri. I can do the exact same thing about its midwestern feel! I also agree about Memphis, Missouri. Surprisingly enough I went hunting up there when I was younger....I know strange to go hunting in a small little town 6 hours away from home. My dad had a friend who had some family up there. One time we went to a restaurant up there and the waitress asked us if we were from Georgia or something. We said, "nope we are from southern Missouri."
Branson is an even poorer representation of the whole state. And Kansas City and St. Louis are actually very similar to one another, despite being on the opposite sides of the state...and being in the central portion of the state, together will exert a fairly powerful influence on the whole state.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Branson, Missouri
620 posts, read 1,222,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Branson is an even poorer representation of the whole state. And Kansas City and St. Louis are actually very similar to one another, despite being on the opposite sides of the state...and being in the central portion of the state, together will exert a fairly powerful influence on the whole state.
Saint Louis and Kansas City similar to one another? Are you sure you are from Missouri? Saint Louis and Kansas City are about as different as two cities and the same state can be. They are not in the "central portion", of the state either. They are both right on the border of the state. We have over 50,000 in my county alone, and southwest missouri accounts for well over 1/3 of the states population. We are a powerful influence to the state, as a whole
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Tippecanoe County, Indiana
26,375 posts, read 46,238,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbored198824 View Post
Saint Louis and Kansas City similar to one another? Are you sure you are from Missouri? Saint Louis and Kansas City are about as different as two cities and the same state can be. They are not in the "central portion", of the state either. They are both right on the border of the state. We have over 50,000 in my county alone, and southwest missouri accounts for well over 1/3 of the states population. We are a powerful influence to the state, as a whole
Not exactly... Metropolitan and micropolitan counties account for 85% of the total population of Missouri. 15% of the population lives in rural counties. That means STL, KC, and the smaller cities have the most political representation. Rural MO will not see any increase in population due to very poor job growth, low wages, and a lack of ammenities that appeal to younger peopple. Also, retirees aren't moving into the same areas that they were in the past so that means economic diversification is absolutely necessary.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Branson, Missouri
620 posts, read 1,222,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Not exactly... Metropolitan and micropolitan counties account for 85% of the total population of Missouri. 15% of the population lives in rural counties. That means STL, KC, and the smaller cities have the most political representation. Rural MO will not see any increase in population due to very poor job growth, low wages, and a lack of ammenities that appeal to younger peopple. Also, retirees aren't moving into the same areas that they were in the past so that means economic diversification is absolutely necessary.
I was not talking about political representation.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,064,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbored198824 View Post
Saint Louis and Kansas City similar to one another? Are you sure you are from Missouri? Saint Louis and Kansas City are about as different as two cities and the same state can be. They are not in the "central portion", of the state either. They are both right on the border of the state. We have over 50,000 in my county alone, and southwest missouri accounts for well over 1/3 of the states population. We are a powerful influence to the state, as a whole
Yes, and I've been to both of these cities numerous times. Culturally, demographically, architecturally, there really is no denying there are a lot of similarities between the two cities. KC may be more western, and STL more eastern, but both cities are Midwestern through and through.

As far as the central portion goes, KC is on the west CENTRAL, St. Louis is on the East Central. I didn't think I'd need to explain that to you, but obviously I did. As far as over 50,000, wow, that's large. In addition, Branson is different from the rest of southwest Missouri. My father grew up in Joplin, and always contrasted it with Branson. Same thing with Springfield. Both Joplin and Springfield do not share extraordinarily similarities to Branson. IF you honestly believe Branson exerts a huge influence on the rest of the state, you must be on drugs. We can continue this debate all night long. But there is no way I'm going to believe that Branson exerts a greater influence on the entire state than either KC or STL. It is much smaller than either one. I think you just stirred the pot and are trying to stir it again.

You go on believing Branson influences the whole state. I can assure you it does not. Your argument of STL and KC having nothing in common at all further goes to show you've never been to either city. The whole northern half of Missouri, while also having its own rural influences, IS influenced by both KC and STL, as is a good portion of the southern half of the state.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:58 AM
 
38 posts, read 40,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I am not classifying the majority of Missouri as Midwestern based solely on St. Louis and Kansas City. Just look at the map of southern dialect....at my most generous, if I had to classify the whole state would be 60% Midwestern, 40% Southern. It is not 50/50 though...not even close.
Well IMO it's more like 50 percent midwestern, 25 percent of a transition zone of Midwest and south mixture like southern IL and IN, and 25 percent actually southern and Dixie.

That's not saying cities in the transition zone can lean more southern or more midwestern. Starting below Jeff City, Stl (excluding Ste Gen) it's a gradual transition that starts midwestern, and ends in Dixie give or take within about 20 miles north of US 60 on South.

Except for far eastern MO along the MS river. As KsheGirl will even say in Cape Girardeau County there really is no transition zone as the changing in central cape county from Midwest to Southern is very sharp, sudden once you get into the central part of the county and hit Jackson, MO which is a southern city. Cape Girardeau the city is more of a mixture due to being larger, the college town, and people living there. I'd draw a rough southern like right at cape, and far SW cape county.

Joplin leans southern of course, but I would not call it fully southern. far northwest arkansas, northeast OK, and far southwestern MO just are not full blown southern due to their location near KS. Of course I would call Joplin a southern city before midwestern. I would not call Joplin or Springfield midwestern cities. Joplin is a hybrid. Springfield, the Mason Dixion line runs right thru it as Brad Pitt says. Right below it places like Ava are southern, ozark mountain northern AR, southern quarter MO southern.

Cities in Missouri that are in the transition zone are places like Farmington, St. Roberts, Rolla, Lake of the Ozarks, Cuba, Lebanon. Although some of the dialect maps suggest Lebanon might be bordering southern including some on here said that before as there seems to be a spike in south central mo.

Cities that are in Dixie are like Sikeston, Caruthersville, Poplar Bluff, West Plains, Mountain Grove, far SW cape county, Houston, Dexter. It isn't a straight line across the state because it seems south central MO it spikes northward a bit as north of US 60 the southerness is more in patches in some areas. For example Scott county is a southern county but US 60 barely runs thru it, and Benton is north of it and is southern.

Rolla is a great example of a transition zone city. has influences from St. Louis, midwest and some southerness too. Last time I was in Rolla probably about 14 years ago, it certainly did feel like southern IN or IL. certainly not fully midwestern, but not fully southern. Leans midwestern, but for sure is a transition city. Just felt strange. Cape Girardeau is a lot more southern than Rolla.

The weather in SW MO is southern! Similar to Nashvilles weather. Joplins new averages from the NWS are only slightly cooler. Senca MO is quite warm as well. I could handle the winters a lot better down there as really only 3 months the max of cold weather and even then you still have a number of days down there where the temps soar into the 60s even 70s sometimes.

Certainly they get more violate weather in southern MO as well especially thunderstorms and tornadoes.

Overall Missouri is midwestern state. 50 percent midwest, 25 percent a mix, and 25 percent dixie.

I just hate the census map because It's too broad. I wish they broke it down more because the far far western OK panhandle is not southern, as well as WV the part that is like only 100 miles from the great lakes also is not southern. Same with Missouri has a good size chunk still that is culturally, and geographically, climate is located in the south that can't be ignored.

IN and Southern IL, yea I can see lumping it all midwestern, but Missouri's southerness geographically and culturally is way way larger than IN or IL transition zones. Well and our state history as well as a border state.

Plus another thing about southern MO is how heavily Republican it leans compared to northern MO. This past election in southern MO especially SW MO a number of counties were over 70 percent Romney, some in the upper 70 percents too! Rural northern MO while all went Republican but not to the extent SW MO was.

there certainly is a strong bible belt component to SW MO. Oklahoma is very similar too being very heavily republican.

Another thing to note is SE MO this past election has become more republican. Democrats usually are more competitive down there compared to SW MO. I think that is due to the farming, and Dixiecrat element. However after this election that has begun to change too.

Jay Nixon has also stated how Missouri is a diverse state of culture due to the location it's in. You can in a few hours be close to the midwest core, lower midwest, Ozarks south, and cotton south.

Stlouisan about Joplin, since SWMO is becoming more heavily republican, can you see it becoming more southern again? Not saying as southern as maybe 100 years ago, but leaning that way?

Maybe the demographics are changing and places like NE OK NW AR and SW MO are going to have less of an influence from Kansas?

Last edited by ShadowCaver; 12-18-2012 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Tippecanoe County, Indiana
26,375 posts, read 46,238,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMissouriFan View Post
Stlouisan about Joplin, since SWMO is becoming more heavily republican, can you see it becoming more southern again? Not saying as southern as maybe 100 years ago, but leaning that way?

Maybe the demographics are changing and places like NE OK NW AR and SW MO are going to have less of an influence from Kansas?
SE Kansas is becoming more southern. At the turn of last century it was a heavily industrial area influenced by zinc and copper mines. Therefore it was more heavily labor union oriented with lots of immigrants from central and eastern Europe. The entire region now from SE Kansas to SW Missouri is much more like the South than the Midwest culturally.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
SE Kansas is becoming more southern. At the turn of last century it was a heavily industrial area influenced by zinc and copper mines. Therefore it was more heavily labor union oriented with lots of immigrants from central and eastern Europe. The entire region now from SE Kansas to SW Missouri is much more like the South than the Midwest culturally.
I can kinda see that. Conservative yes, but I always thought there was a sharp dividing line of southern when crossing over to KS from MO or OK. Joplin, SW MO just feels more southern that KS would be. Just like it seems a sharp dividing line from KS to OK when you cross the border. I mean especially religion wise. Just like northern MO right when you cross into MO the main religion is methodist or baptist. Gives you a indication of ancestory.
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