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Old 06-10-2013, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Branson, Missouri
622 posts, read 976,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSouthernMan View Post
But will they be more liberal, and ruin the culture like what happened in CO?
Many people who move to southwest Missouri move here from Arkansas and Oklahoma because of our proximity to the two states. The third largest state that people move here from is Texas.
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Old 06-10-2013, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 26,500,129 times
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Not likely. The entire area is overwhelmingly not liberal and has been for far more than the last 40-years. If it changes it will be very, very slow.

Tantey county is growing like a weed, but it won't ovetake St. Louis because it doesn't have the resources. Branson is a terrific retirement/entertainment area but it isn't, at this point in time, likely to interest Fortune 500 companies. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSouthernMan View Post
But will they be more liberal, and ruin the culture like what happened in CO?
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 26,500,129 times
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Just for the sake of discussion I think it is more probable that folks move as much for the fabulous entertainment and retirement value in Branson as they do for proximity to two states. I have driven from Branson into NW Arkansas but not into the NE Arkansas.

Don't get me wrong. I like both areas, and have spent hours in both. It is beautiful, natural, and not disturbed over much by human population. Folks move to NE Oklahoma because Grand Lake is a popular retirement area, too, with easy access to three states. It is easy access, for instance, to visit three major Civil War battlefields at Republic, Carthage, and Pea Ridge on the MO/AR border, plus three CW cemeteries.

There is along list of things to see in the area between Branson and Grove that one can't possibly experience in a whole week. The real surprise is what one can find when pilling out drawers, and poking in the corners, so to speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imbored198824 View Post
Many people who move to southwest Missouri move here from Arkansas and Oklahoma because of our proximity to the two states. The third largest state that people move here from is Texas.
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Old 06-15-2013, 07:05 PM
 
260 posts, read 504,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB View Post
That is a pretty neat project, and was updated very recently it looks like. That may be the map I was thinking of actually.
That new map is interesting. Most of the maps always show a spike in the southern accent in south central Missouri but this map has that spike shifted eastwards more to cover Park Hills, Farmington area. most of the maps have that northern spike more to the west around Lebanon.

Now Park Hills, Farmington are firmly in transition zone and people I've talked to there do have a ozarkish and kinda sound southernish but not to the extent someone down in Branson or West Plains does. But I do hear twangs in that area that you certainly don't hear in Jefferson county which is the bordering county to the north.

If that map showed the line in starting around Federick Town and Cherokee Pass I'd say it's pretty accurate. Because things becoming pretty southern "all at once" in the Cherokee Pass area KSHE said once on here. Frederick Town is just plain white trash though.

But that latest map carves out the MS hills region in eastern MO though.

Its just ironic how modern St. Louis is so East Coastish, rustbelt, but just 100 miles away you're in the south, and about 50 miles south its the start of transition zone.

If you hear down I55 Dixie is less than two hours away and the weather varies greatly too once you hit Cape Girardeau. The winters are milder when you get into the Delta.
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Old 06-15-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Here is a map St. Louisan made which is pretty decent! Except in SE MO the south line should be a bit north I think because there are parts of rural Cape that are southern in parts that are north of Cape like Jackson for example. Ste Gen and Perryville are Midwestern though that map should have them carved out. Maybe the far southern tip of Perry Co might have very slight influence since it touches Bollinger and Cape county, but it's still Midwestern.

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Old 06-16-2013, 12:25 AM
 
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As a Kentuckian peeking in on this forum I must admit my ignorance of Missouri. I've been twice, both times to Cape Girardeau, and was too young to remember any culture, as my brother was living in southern Illinois briefly and we crossed old man river for the outlet mall. I was puzzled by the presence of rebel flags in IL. Anyways, this sort of topic fascinates me, as Kentucky is kinda inverted from yall' s situation, whereas we are predominantly Southern with Midwestern influences in the larger border areas, especially the 3 county area across from Cincinnati, which is not only predominantly Midwestern in culture, but also climate. I will say that I consider the bootheel and southern Ozark region to be the South, and we in Kentucky consider the Purchase and parts of the western Pennyrile to be the Mid-South, so the bootheel would be included in that since its all the northernmost tip of the Mississippi delta. I'm guessing the southern Ozarks have a more upper south feel. I live in Bowling Green, Kentucky and sadly the only Missourians I've met were transplants from St. Louis when they moved corvette production here, and so I've never met a Missourian that came across as Southern to me. Before yall get all riled up though remember I ain't really been there, and hope to one day explore some of yalls unique culture. I fish and kayak the Purchase cypress swamps quite a bit though so maybe I oughtta cross the river next time I'm over there.
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:37 AM
 
260 posts, read 504,350 times
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I can't find the link but a few weeks ago I was reading a thread on another forum and people thought Branson was Midwestern, and another poster made a comment how Southeast Missouri doesn't really have any southern accent, but it's a hillbilly accent lol. I think the commenter was from Miami, which is NOT southern in any form, heck English is almost becoming a second language there.

One thing when I think of hillbilly accent I think of the Ozarks accent of the Arkansas Ozarks and of course the southern quarter of Missouri in the Ozarks area. Dexter, Poplar Bluff, Sikeston, Kennett, Benton, New Madrid are NOT the same accents. They're two totally different styles of southern accents.

Then I noticed the posters who had locations listed some were not even from Missouri or Arkansas, just tourist.

I was down in Branson last month for the first time in over 20 yrs since I was a child. I was shocked how it was still as southern as it was. I mean I always knew Table Rock, and Branson were in the south of course, but I didn't think it was going to be as heavily southern still since it's grown so much. Nearly all the locals I ran into had a clear southern accent. Interesting to note at Silver Dollar City I was there just before the summer season started so it was mostly locals from the MO AR area since I noted the license plates in the parking lot how the adults most of them had the typical southern Ozark hillbilly region accent, while the kids, and young adults most of them DID NOT have an accent but had a typical flat accent.

And Springfield as I said I wasn't there since 1997 but I was shocked also at the number of people I interacted with that also had the accent although I heard less of it in springfield and heard the flat accents as well. Springfield is a bit more southern influenced than I thought it would be. Springfield certainly does have some Midwest influence in it though just that it feels more southern that I thought it was going to be. Once I hit republican and battlefield it is southern pretty much.
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:50 AM
 
260 posts, read 504,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckessee View Post
As a Kentuckian peeking in on this forum I must admit my ignorance of Missouri. I've been twice, both times to Cape Girardeau, and was too young to remember any culture, as my brother was living in southern Illinois briefly and we crossed old man river for the outlet mall. I was puzzled by the presence of rebel flags in IL. Anyways, this sort of topic fascinates me, as Kentucky is kinda inverted from yall' s situation, whereas we are predominantly Southern with Midwestern influences in the larger border areas, especially the 3 county area across from Cincinnati, which is not only predominantly Midwestern in culture, but also climate. I will say that I consider the bootheel and southern Ozark region to be the South, and we in Kentucky consider the Purchase and parts of the western Pennyrile to be the Mid-South, so the bootheel would be included in that since its all the northernmost tip of the Mississippi delta. I'm guessing the southern Ozarks have a more upper south feel. I live in Bowling Green, Kentucky and sadly the only Missourians I've met were transplants from St. Louis when they moved corvette production here, and so I've never met a Missourian that came across as Southern to me. Before yall get all riled up though remember I ain't really been there, and hope to one day explore some of yalls unique culture. I fish and kayak the Purchase cypress swamps quite a bit though so maybe I oughtta cross the river next time I'm over there.
The Ozarks about 15 miles north of hwy 60 on south are Dixie and have mild climate, southern accent, culture. North of that up into the US50 area near the MO river excluding Stl is a transition zone similar to Southern IL and far southern IN. You have mix of Midwest and southern influences.

So if you're in places in Missouri like Springfield, West Plains, Branson, Table Rock, Poplar Bluff, Sikeston, Jackson, Kennett, Caruthersville, Ellington, Dexter you're basically in Dixie.

Places futher north like Lake of the Ozarks Ft. Leonard Wood, Rolla, Farmington, Lebanon Will feel like southern IL an odd mixuture of both cultures and some areas will lean more Midwestern than southern and vice versa

When you head down I44 south when you get out of Stl county you gradually go into this transition zone and when you get just south of springfield city limits it is pretty much fully southern. I55 south when you get to the middle of Cape Girardeau county you will notice a real sudden shift to southerness from Midwesterness with little in the way of transition zone.

Also places along US 50 and just north of it known as Little Dixie still have some noticeable southern traits left over even though the area is part of the lower Midwest in Modern times. StLouisan has been living out there and has been describing central MO.

However Missouri overall is Midwestern in modern times.

Most of us agree Missouri is about 25 percent Dixie/southern, 25 percent transition zone of Midwest and southern Mixture and 50 percent fully Midwestern.

Basically put it MO is the only Midwest state that has parts of the state located regionally and culturally IN the south. Southern IL and IN only have transition zones really. MO is distinct from the rest of the Midwestern states. Historically MO was a southern state culturally though like over 150 years ago. IN and IL also don't have that distinction to their title and both did not have the star on the COnfederate flag like KY and MO both did even though both stars can't really be considered legit at all especially KY since that was even more of a rump than Missouri's vote was.

Im no fan of our governor Jay Nixon but I do remember a quote by him about the civil war, and the SEC about how Missouri has a number of different cultures and trying to intertwine the entire state into one. Which he is totally right! NW MO will differ greatly from SW or SE Mo and Stl differs from KC in ways as well.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:14 AM
 
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Well we consider our star legit since our legislature at the time with economic ties to the north disbanded before a vote could be made for secession, fearing we would secede with urging from our southern sympathizing governor. So representatives from 63 counties met at Russellville and adopted an ordinance of secession, which was accepted by Kentuckian and CSA president Jefferson Davis. Also countless records of Confederate enrollment numbers were burned with courthouses at the time by Morgan's raids after secession officially failed fearing treason charges for fellow Kentuckians by the Union. Some of the most prominent Confederates were Kentuckians, and our state filled it's empty government seats with rebels once the war was over. I don't know what happened in Missouri
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:32 AM
 
260 posts, read 504,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckessee View Post
Well we consider our star legit since our legislature at the time with economic ties to the north disbanded before a vote could be made for secession, fearing we would secede with urging from our southern sympathizing governor. So representatives from 63 counties met at Russellville and adopted an ordinance of secession, which was accepted by Kentuckian and CSA president Jefferson Davis. Also countless records of Confederate enrollment numbers were burned with courthouses at the time by Morgan's raids after secession officially failed fearing treason charges for fellow Kentuckians by the Union. Some of the most prominent Confederates were Kentuckians, and our state filled it's empty government seats with rebels once the war was over. I don't know what happened in Missouri
Missouri's lawmakers were the opposite. Most of them were all pro Confederate especially our governor Claiborne Fox Jackson was was destined to get MO into the Confederacy. The Constitutional convention who was separate from the lawmakers most of them were against secession.

What happened is that General Nathanial Lyon quickly invaded Missouri and forced our lawmakers to flee Jefferson City or they would have been arrested just like what happened to Maryland's Lawmakers.

The remaining pro union constitutional convention seat holders held a vote and evicted all of our ELECTED lawmakers.

The problem with this is that the constitutional convention had no authority to evict anyone from state office which is a separate debate alone right there and the lawmakers were not breaking any laws by leaving Jefferson City.

Basically then the Union got control of Missouri. There were key battles like Pea Ridge that if won by Sterling Price could have increased Missouri's chance of getting confederate control of the state, but that failed.

Later in the year in Neosho Missouri, the evicted lawmakers met and they voted to secede Missouri from the union. However that is called a rump session by many and is also debated if one it was legit because of them being evicted from office, two the debate if they were actually evicted from office or not since technically the convention had no authority to evict them, and number three even if constitutionally they were still the legit lawmakers of Missouri, did they have enough members present for a quorum. The quorum is still debated to this day.

Due to this vote Confederate congress admitted Missouri as the 12th confederate state and KY number 13.

KY technically IMO was even more of a rump session because it's elected lawmakers did not organize that statewide vote, at least in Missouri the lawmakers who met in Neosho were elected to office regardless of what their legal status was at least it was semi more formal than Kentucky's was.

AGAIN I'm not calling that vote in Neosho official I'm simply stating it was more legit than the one in KY was because at least it was Missouri House and Senate members who drafted it.

KY like MO sent more men overall for the Union.

But look at it this way. The Confederates admitted both of them so even if though they never truly seceded the confederates still considered them a fellow confederate state.

So the Union and Confederacy both claimed them. I call them split states. Claimed by both.

I do personally think if General Lyon didn't have a successful invasion so quickly it's likely MO would have somehow officially seceded. The House and Senate would have likely gathered in Jefferson City and voted us out and it would then have been considered more official since they wouldn't have been evicted. That is what Maryland's lawmakers were possibly going to do.

If that was the case then there is the argument who has the authority to secede. I think what our lawmakers would have done would have been to disbanded the constitutional convention and then consider themselves to have the authority to secede, that way there wouldn't been the debate as to who had the final say in all of it.

Right before General Lyon invaded Claiborne Fox Jackson told Jefferson Davis he needed about 30 more days in order to secede Missouri. With the Camp Jackson hysteria fresh, I think just enough arm twisting could have been done to narrowly get support to secede Missouri.

However if that was the case it wouldn't have lasted long because Missouri was too much of a divided state, and due to its location the Union would have got control the state eventually. It likely would have fallen quickly just like Tennessee and Missouri would then been one of the first states readmitted back into the Union during reconstruction.

Only thing it would have changed is at the Federal and State level MO probably would have been a bit more heavily democrat up until the 1960s than it was and in the history books Mo would have been considered a legit confederate state and you'd maybe would see a bit more confederate memorials and flags around Missouri. Otherwise not much would be different in MO today except some might call it a southern state more and would have a bit more southern influence than it does now.

Read more here about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_secession

And in MO the pro union provisional government drafted the Drake Constitution which bared any pro confederate people from office of any kind, barred them from practicing law or medicine, etc. A lot of pro confederate Missourian's left the state after the war and Missouri lost southern ties and became more Midwestern.
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