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Old 06-26-2017, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW Missouri Dave View Post
The Union victory at Pea Ridge secured Union control of Missouri, but a loss here would not have "kept control of Missouri for the Confederacy" since they never had control of the state, nor was there ever any serious threat of the Union losing control of Missouri. They best they could do was held onto Springfield for nearly three months after Wilson's Creek and were unable to take it again in January 1863.

What the outnumbered Union victory did do was give the Union Army control of much of northern Arkansas for the remainder of the war.
You also have central MO and Little Dixie too which likely would have been under Confederate control, which would have allowed the elected government to stay in Jefferson City. Don't need control of the whole state. Heck TN had large chunks controlled by the Union and was one of the first states to fall. In fact, the Eastern half of TN nearly broke away like WV because it was pro union.
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Wellsville, Missouri
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I can certainly tell you that up in Montgomery County seems like the South. Confederate flags everywhere, hell, even we fly one (not my choice)
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RuralTownLover View Post
I can certainly tell you that up in Montgomery County seems like the South. Confederate flags everywhere, hell, even we fly one (not my choice)
I wouldn't even really call that in the transition zone though, but in some sections I can see where there is a bit of influence since that was around the outer areas of Little Dixie. Overall it's lower Midwestern though.

Granted, most areas of rural Missouri is still going to have more southern influences than Iowa for example. Overall I can't really consider your area within that transition zone that starts along US 50 in MO except in some areas of western and central MO that transition zone extends to I70 such as Lafayette County that has noticeable southern influences.
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Old 08-19-2017, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Wellsville, Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOforthewin View Post
I wouldn't even really call that in the transition zone though, but in some sections I can see where there is a bit of influence since that was around the outer areas of Little Dixie. Overall it's lower Midwestern though.

Granted, most areas of rural Missouri is still going to have more southern influences than Iowa for example. Overall I can't really consider your area within that transition zone that starts along US 50 in MO except in some areas of western and central MO that transition zone extends to I70 such as Lafayette County that has noticeable southern influences.
That's fine! I totally understand what you're saying.

IMHO, "The South" is just as much a way of mind as it is a geographical location. I wouldn't call the racist idiots in Idaho who fly the Confederate battle flag Southern, but Missouri certainly can be.
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Old 08-19-2017, 10:41 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
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Lafayette County and Lexington are sort of an outlier with folks commemorating the pro-southern sympathies during the Civil War. The Battle of Lexington was a major event in Missouri History and the Confederate Soldiers home was in Lafayette County. I wouldn't say the counties directly to the south of Lexington are transition counties. There is a strong Germanic element in Benton County. Waving a Confederate flag or displaying one on your home or car has little to do with being southern these days. Montgomery County borders Callaway County which is firmly included in the Little Dixie outlier but due south you have Gasconade County and Hermann, very German and not southern. The whole tier of counties on the south side of the Missouri River from Cole County to St. Louis have huge German (and Catholic) populations with little southern identity. If you look at early census records you can see the German names displacing the Scotch-Irish or English surnames in the 1830s and 1840s in that region.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
Lafayette County and Lexington are sort of an outlier with folks commemorating the pro-southern sympathies during the Civil War. The Battle of Lexington was a major event in Missouri History and the Confederate Soldiers home was in Lafayette County. I wouldn't say the counties directly to the south of Lexington are transition counties. There is a strong Germanic element in Benton County. Waving a Confederate flag or displaying one on your home or car has little to do with being southern these days. Montgomery County borders Callaway County which is firmly included in the Little Dixie outlier but due south you have Gasconade County and Hermann, very German and not southern. The whole tier of counties on the south side of the Missouri River from Cole County to St. Louis have huge German (and Catholic) populations with little southern identity. If you look at early census records you can see the German names displacing the Scotch-Irish or English surnames in the 1830s and 1840s in that region.

True, but all because Scott Irish don't dominate ancestry or Southern Baptist doesn't mean it can't have southern influences in the transition zone.

Hardly any of southern Indiana is Southern Baptist or English, Scott-Irish, but instead is Germanic and Catholic, yet it still has noticeable southern influences there. Not full on southern like the southern quarter of Missouri but that transition zone like the northern half of southern Missouri that starts just outside St. Louis.

If you head down I44 out of St. Louis once you get out of St. Louis county you notice a very gradual transition that begins.

St. Gen and Perry County are very Midwestern with hardly any southern influences, but just to the east in St. Francois county it's in that transition zone and Southern Baptist is the majority religion there according to the 2010 census. I'd say as a whole it's like 75 percent Midwestern and 25-30 percent southern influence.

In far Eastern MO there is hardly any transition zone. When you're on I55 it's Midwestern then all of a sudden when you hit Jackson it becomes pretty southern which THB will also say about Jackson as he's from there. Even though it's just 80 miles from St. Louis, hard to believe it's that close.

HWY 50 there are exception as being the dividing line though as St Gen and Perry county are south of it. Just like places like Booneville, Lexington, Sedalia, etc. that have southern influences are just north of that line. In fact, north of the MO river in patches you will still find places that have southern influences.

Most of us on here have came to the conclusion that about 25 percent of Missouri is southern, 25 percent a transition zone like Southern Indiana and Southern IL a blending of both cultures, and 50 percent Midwestern.

Missouri certainly varies greatly from the rest of the Midwest though. Religion, Southern Baptist dominates, a quarter of the state is within the southern dialect zone, a number of counties still have English as the main ancestry, some of the strongest abortion laws in the country, VERY pro gun, in fact, more pro gun than all the southern states except MS and WV which are the same pro gun level as MO since they also have permit less carry.

Politically overall MO resembles a southern state rather than Midwestern.

Here in Florida our Republicans are a lot more moderate and gunshy compared to Missouri's which are more to the right.

Like the Eric Greitens's gun campaign ads you would never see a Florida governor candidate do something like that. Of course in a state like Missouri that is very appealing to a lot of those voters. Despite Chris Koster being A rated by the NRA and supporting HB 656, Greitens still won by almost 6 points.

It could also be because Missouri's "flip" is finally complete. Some conservatives still voted for people like Jay Nixon who are democrats. Same way in Kentucky and West Virginia where their flips have more recently completed. Now in Missouri most of those rural conservative democrats now vote Republican.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralTownLover View Post
I can certainly tell you that up in Montgomery County seems like the South. Confederate flags everywhere, hell, even we fly one (not my choice)

It's odd that people in Montgomery County would be flying Confederate flags more that 150 years after the war. If I remember correctly, Montgomery County was raided several times by Bloody Bill Anderson and his guerillas, where they killed scores of people because the county had the perception of being pro-Union.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDM66 View Post
It's odd that people in Montgomery County would be flying Confederate flags more that 150 years after the war. If I remember correctly, Montgomery County was raided several times by Bloody Bill Anderson and his guerillas, where they killed scores of people because the county had the perception of being pro-Union.
Also, opinions changed after the civil war over the years. Like the Ozarks for example of Arkansas and Missouri were generally considered split, with some areas being very pro confederate like Oregon, Butler, Ripley counties for example and some areas being split down the middle in support for the union. Today when you go in the Ozarks you see a number of people flying the flags and the people down there especially in Southwestern MO hate big government and government interference in the Ozarks in general.

Same with Kentucky after the civil war. Kentucky was actually more pro union than Missouri was and never in danger of leaving unlike Missouri, but after the civil war many people's attitudes shifted over the years in support of the Confederacy.

Another score for Missouri being different than the Midwestern states. You don't see the level of confederate stuff in Ohio, Indiana or Iowa like you do in Missouri. You simply don't see this influence in other Midwestern states.
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