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Old 08-15-2018, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,343 posts, read 3,100,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
I currently live less than 50 miles from the Arkansas border and it's hit -10 F or lower for the last 3 years in a row here. It doesn't stay that cold for very long, as average temps in January are highs in the low 40s, lows in the mid 20s. But it does get that cold and a week with highs below freezing is common.





WV isn't anywhere near the Midwest and its weather is not comparable. Nevada inhabits the same latitude as MO, but their weather is also very different from ours since they are well outside of the Midwest. WV may be colder, but NV is much warmer. Latitude matters here as well as longitude.



WV is not Southern. Remember, they seceded from Virginia to be on the side of the North during the Civil War. WV is fairly unique and best described as "Appalachian."



Just a correction of your history. First of all, West Virginia did not secede from anybody, less than 19,000 voters supported statehood out of 79,000 voters. It was created without the participation of most West Virginians. Secondly, West Virginia is the only border state that did not give most of its soldiers to the Union, as Missouri and Kentucky did. It was about an even split, 50/50 between the Confederacy and the Union. And thirdly, half of the counties in West Virginia formally voted to secede from the Union, MO and KY had no vote at all.


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Old 08-16-2018, 09:40 AM
 
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I have not lived in Missouri since 1987, I moved to Ozark in 1971 and lived most the the time from then till 1987 in Springfield. I still have friends in SW Mo and visit every couple of years or so. The weather has become much warmer in the winters than when I was living there. I remember one Christmas Eve when it got down to -16. I had to photography the Branson Christmas Parade one year when it was -8 at the start of the parade. One year in the mid-70s it was below freezing (i.e. never got above 32 all day) for a total of 63 days straight--that set a record.

While it may not get that cold anymore, I still look at Missouri, yes, even the southwest portion, as have four seasons.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:46 AM
 
Location: MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johninvegas View Post
I have not lived in Missouri since 1987, I moved to Ozark in 1971 and lived most the the time from then till 1987 in Springfield. I still have friends in SW Mo and visit every couple of years or so. The weather has become much warmer in the winters than when I was living there. I remember one Christmas Eve when it got down to -16. I had to photography the Branson Christmas Parade one year when it was -8 at the start of the parade. One year in the mid-70s it was below freezing (i.e. never got above 32 all day) for a total of 63 days straight--that set a record.

While it may not get that cold anymore, I still look at Missouri, yes, even the southwest portion, as have four seasons.
I think the entire eastern U.S. had several years of very cold winters in the late 70's and maybe more years around there. Until I think two years ago, 1977 was the record lowest temperature ever recorded at Cape Girardeau at -18 degrees. I think it hit -19 a couple of years ago.

Growing up near Cape I barely ever remember it being below zero. Single digits happened a couple of times every winter though.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
Springfield and Branson are not very Southern, particularly compared to the Bootheel and especially some place that is actually Southern such as Alabama. I live in the Springfield/Branson area so I should know. Cape Girardeau is much closer to being Southern than Springfield/Branson.


The northern third of MO is identical to Iowa, southern MN, and the Great Plains, except accents change to the "up nort" accent once you get about halfway between I-80 and I-90 and they think northern Missouri is "southern" because we don't say "aboot" and "uff da." But, if I drove you some unspecified distance from St. Joe north up I-29 during the summer and dropped you off, you couldn't tell if you were 10 miles north of St. Joe or 10 miles south of the Canadian border unless you turned on a GPS. My wife and I joked that Missouri started at St. Joe when we made many trips along I-29 south back home to Missouri when we did a stint in SD.



I do agree with much of Missouri outside of the Bootheel and south of US 36 being pretty similar to the Ohio Valley.
The Ozarks of southern MO near highway 60 on south is southern though and not transition.

The difference is it's more Smoky Mountains upper south and not deep south type like the bootheel is. of course the bootheel should be more southern.

My late uncle used to have a house in far southern Missouri at Bull Shoals about 5 miles from Arkansas. Nothing Midwestern about that area.

Branson is southern. I went there right before season when the place isn't as diluted from non locals. The accents were distinct as well and being from St. Louis you stand out.

Now the Ozarks isn't as southern as the deep south. It's like a southern lite. Doesn't mean it's not southern though, just not as heavily intrenched like the deep south.


Cities like Poplar Bluff, Branson, West Plains, Sikeston are not midwestern.

The area from the MO river on south to about 10 miles north of highway 60 is a transition zone, a mix of both midwestern and southern. More north in that area the more midwestern obviously. When you get close to highway 60 you're in the south in Missouri. Everyone on here pretty much agrees on this.

Even leaving highway 44 when you get out of St. Louis county you notice this gradual transition zone begin. You really notice it when you get close to Phelps County it really picks up.

Dialect maps also back that up as well.

Yea I know WV really isn't a southern state. Eastern TN also nearly broke off like West Virginia to form a new state as well.

I know the census lumps WV as the south but as we talk about on here the census is really not that accurate. DE has never really been that southern before and MD hasn't been that southern for awhile now.

Like the census might put WV in the south, but nowhere in West Virginia is it as southern as Caruthersville or Poplar Bluff Missouri.

Even western KY that is the most culturally southern part of the state isn't the same as far south like Caruthersville or Kennett yet the state is more southern than MO as a whole.

I can see the comparions to the Ohio Valley. The southern quarter of MO would be more like the Kentucky parts of the Ohio Valley. Places like West Plains, Poplar Bluff and Branson deep in the Ozarks have nothing in common with southern IN or OH and don't feel midwestern culturally. Those places are pretty southern.

Places closer to highway 50 in the northern part of the transition zone would compare better with southern half of Ohio and Indiana because they're more midwestern.

I think this map is pretty good at representing the dialect. Similar to the Univ of PA study. Shows 25-30 percent of MO as southern, southern quarter basically as I stated. The Univ of PA map is a bit further north with the dialect but it was done in the mid 90s. I think all across the board it would be less now as the southern dialect is dying off. The old people you will find have the dialect more today.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ialect_map.png
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB View Post
I think the entire eastern U.S. had several years of very cold winters in the late 70's and maybe more years around there. Until I think two years ago, 1977 was the record lowest temperature ever recorded at Cape Girardeau at -18 degrees. I think it hit -19 a couple of years ago.

Growing up near Cape I barely ever remember it being below zero. Single digits happened a couple of times every winter though.
The 1980s also had very cold winters too. Hell, that is why most of the Orange industry is now Orlando on South here in Florida due to all the hard freezes they were getting up there.

The thing is the Ozarks can get cold at night due to elevation they typically have colder average lows, BUT the average highs in the winter in the southern quarter of MO are the mid 40s for highs and quickly warms up by mid feb. Average lows at night cold but warmer daytime highs.

Joplin has a mild climate. Far southwestern MO is actually the warmest part of MO, slightly warmer than the bootheel but has colder nights though. I'm talking like Joplin on south. It's also the warmest area of MO in the summer.

Heat wise though it was hotter in the summer years ago like the 1940s and 50s and 60s. St. Louis had some horrible summers for heat worse than 2012 high wise. The average high in St. Louis was 90 0r 91 I believe and in 2010 when they newest climate numbers came out for 1980 to 2010 St. Louis's average summer high is only 89 now but winter averages went up.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobilee View Post
Just a correction of your history. First of all, West Virginia did not secede from anybody, less than 19,000 voters supported statehood out of 79,000 voters. It was created without the participation of most West Virginians. Secondly, West Virginia is the only border state that did not give most of its soldiers to the Union, as Missouri and Kentucky did. It was about an even split, 50/50 between the Confederacy and the Union. And thirdly, half of the counties in West Virginia formally voted to secede from the Union, MO and KY had no vote at all.

The counties in white in WV are not very southern, the small slither of WV that extends way north isn't southern at all.

That is true about KY and MO. However, Missouri was closer to leaving the union than KY was. The lawmakers of KY were mostly very union. Their governor was also neutral wanting to stay out of it unlike Claiborne Jackson and most of MO lawmakers who were very openly pro south. Jackson said he was neutral but he clearly favored the Confederacy.

That was the downfall with him. If Claiborne Jackson wouldn't have been so openly flamboyant about wanting to join the Confederacy the Union likely wouldn't have invaded as fast to take over most of the state and they could have moved behind the scenes to get in Confederate control.

Kentucky was never in real danger of leaving the union. As for the numbers nobody really knows. With Missouri a number of those men were brought in from other midwestern states and put in Missouri units and labeled as from Missouri. I think if there was any way of separating that the numbers would be more evened out.

Also, the constitutional convention has NO authority to evict MO lawmakers. Nothing in the MO constitution says lawmakers can't go to other parts of the state. The governor can even sign bills anywhere in the state like he regularly does.

lets put it like this. Missouri was a border state. The actual lawmakers (not constitutional convention) but state reps and senators would take MO out of the union on their own if they had to. I'm discounting the Neosho convention right now, but lets say Missouri won the battle of Pea Ridge which all say was the deciding factor in MO being under union control.

The senators and reps along with the governor would have passed a resolution taking MO out of the union and Confederate congress would then admit them.

Sorta like the right to work vote that just happened. A lot of people in the state wouldn't support or agree MO should leave the union but the lawmakers would do it anyway just like they want to pass right to work again in the future.

Confederate congress admitted both KY and MO anyway and they were claimed as Confederate states while the union also claimed them. If "Prices Raid" was successful and they took St. Louis and Jefferson City and installed the ELECTED government I wonder if MO would be consider more southern today.

If Pea Ridge was won by Missouri I still think it would been pretty split but more citizens would join the Confederacy simply because their state government chose that side.

Far all intents though, Missouri today still behaves more like a southern state than the other Midwestern ones. Religion wise it's bible belt and Southern Baptist outnumber Catholics in MO although it's close, southern quarter is in the south

Also, the makeup of the lawmakers in the state senate and house is very red, actually more Republican than most other southern states, and the state lawmakers are far to the right on abortion, religion and guns.

Actually Missouri compared to the border and southern states has BETTER gun rights except for Mississippi where MS and MO are basically tied for gun freedoms as they both don't require permits to carry.

Our gun laws here in Floriduh SUCK compared to Missouri. No open carry, forced to BUY a concealed carry permit, 21 to buy a rifle, 3 day wait periods and strict penalties for carrying into no gun zones.

I will say overall Missourians are more into guns than Floridians. You don't see nearly as many gun ranges and shops down here as you do in St. Louis and Jefferson County. St. Louis and Jefferson County you now see at least one shop or range every 3 or so miles, especially south county.

Trump also won Missouri by 18 points. Compare that to Georgia and Floriduh where it was a lot less than that. Missouri in many places feels more southern than most places here in FL in modern time. The people here in FL also socially are more liberal as well I run into than in Missouri and seem more tolerant towards minorities and gays for example.
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:44 PM
 
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I felt the same way after we drove to Phoenix and back, through Oklahoma, Texas and Arizona. Coming back, everything was so pretty and green. I live in Kansas City on the Kansas side. But there was such a sharp contrast in the scenery.


I also felt that way after traveling to California, where a lot of the houses are enclosed behind gates. It was so refreshing to come home and actually to be able to see beautiful houses and lawns instead of just gates and fences.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:42 PM
 
Location: SW MO
662 posts, read 1,162,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOforthewin View Post
The Ozarks of southern MO near highway 60 on south is southern though and not transition.

No, or at least not today it's not, and hasn't been for a while.


[quote]Branson is southern. I went there right before season when the place isn't as diluted from non locals. The accents were distinct as well and being from St. Louis you stand out.[quote]


Yes you do, because being from St. Louis and being 50+ years old you have a very unusual nasal accent and saying you drove down "farty far" will peg you as being as being from St. Louis in an instant. I grew up a half hour west of 270 and we could tell somebody from inside of 270 very quickly by their "farts".


Quote:
Now the Ozarks isn't as southern as the deep south. It's like a southern lite. Doesn't mean it's not southern though, just not as heavily intrenched like the deep south.

"Intrenched?" Your spell checker had a "fart"


Quote:
The area from the MO river on south to about 10 miles north of highway 60 is a transition zone, a mix of both midwestern and southern. More north in that area the more midwestern obviously. When you get close to highway 60 you're in the south in Missouri. Everyone on here pretty much agrees on this.

10 miles north of Highway 60 is I-44 at the northern border of Springfield. Highway 60 runs through south Springfield. There isn't a noticeable cultural gradient through Springfield except that north Springfield is a dump while southern Springfield south of about Cherry is much nicer. Also, all of the people in redneck hick towns such as Ozark south of 60 that commute into Springfield really Southern the place up.





Quote:
Even leaving highway 44 when you get out of St. Louis county you notice this gradual transition zone begin. You really notice it when you get close to Phelps County it really picks up.

The "farts" wear off once you get into St. Charles County, let alone Phelps County. Civilization ends once you cross 270, don't you know that? You need to interview some more toothless white drunk/methed-up trailer trash wearing a stained wifebeater at the truck stop in Villa Ridge to remind yourself of that, just like all of the TV stations in St. Louis did from at least the 1980s to the present.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Floyd County, IN
25,218 posts, read 43,118,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB View Post
Missouri definitely has four seasons, especially in the parts of the state where the majority of the population resides.

Just because it doesn't get below zero some years in parts of Missouri doesn't mean that there isn't a winter, just like how a place like Duluth, MN having an average high of 76 in its warmest month doesn't mean that it doesn't have a summer.
Missouri doesn't have a climate match that is anywhere close to a place like Elkins, WV at a similar latitude at 1,900ft elevation, though. That area is very similar in climate to the Laurel Highlands of Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkins,_West_Virginia
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:09 PM
 
Location: MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Missouri doesn't have a climate match that is anywhere close to a place like Elkins, WV at a similar latitude at 1,900ft elevation, though. That area is very similar in climate to the Laurel Highlands of Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkins,_West_Virginia
Well I'm sure you are correct. WV's climate isn't influenced by the Gulf of Mexico like much of southern Missouri is, plus the elevation difference between northern Missouri and much of West Virginia.

Missouri still has four seasons though.
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