St Louis vs Kansas City (St. Louis, Lee's Summit: buying a house, buying, construction)

[skrazzle]

Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989

How are you defining walkable? Is Soulard walkable? Lots of people walk around Soulard during Mardi Gras.

Honestly, to me, that list doesn't really mean anything.

And walkable doesn't mean good. It just means walkable.

Ok, please explain why downtown, plaza, midtown, westport are not good? LOL.

As far as what they mean by walkable:

What Makes a Neighborhood Walkable

What makes a neighborhood walkable?

• A center: Walkable neighborhoods have a discernable center, whether it's a shopping district, a main street, or a public space.
• Density: The neighborhood is compact enough for local businesses to flourish and for public transportation to run frequently.
• Mixed income, mixed use: Housing is provided for everyone who works in the neighborhood: young and old, singles and families, rich and poor. Businesses and residences are located near each other.
• Parks and public space: There are plenty of public places to gather and play.
• Pedestrian-centric design: Buildings are placed close to the street to cater to foot traffic, with parking lots relegated to the back.
• Nearby schools and workplaces: Schools and workplaces are close enough that most residents can walk from their homes.

Streets Designed for Everyone

Complete Streets are roads are designed for everyone who uses them, including bicyclists, pedestrians of all ages and abilities, and people getting on and off transit vehicles. These streets are:

• Accessible: There are wheelchair ramps, plenty of benches with shade, sidewalks on all streets, etc.
• Well-connected: Streets form a connected grid that improves traffic by providing many routes to any destination.
• Built for the right speed: Lanes are narrow or traffic calming is in place to control speed.
• Comfortable: Pedestrian medians at intersections, count-down crosswalk timers, bicycle lanes, protected bus shelters, etc. make the street work better for those outside of a car.

[STLCardsBlues1989]

Originally Posted by skrazzle

Ok, please explain why downtown, plaza, midtown, westport are not good? LOL.

I never said that they weren't good, but walkable is not all that makes a neighborhood great.

[skrazzle]

Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989

I never said that they weren't good, but walkable is not all that makes a neighborhood great.

I can agree with that. It's definitely not the end all of things...

[aragx6]

St. Louis doesn't get to be on their list of walkable neighborhoods because they only do the top 40 largest cities, which St. Louis' population just misses (probably because we didn't spend the last 50 year annexing farmland like KC did). Check your facts please.

You can type in the address in no less than 8 St. Louis neighborhoods and get called a Walker's Paradise -- I've done it repeatedly.

[STLCardsBlues1989]

Originally Posted by aragx6

St. Louis doesn't get to be on their list of walkable neighborhoods because they only do the top 40 largest cities, which St. Louis' population just misses (probably because we didn't spend the last 50 year annexing farmland like KC did). Check your facts please.

You can type in the address in no less than 8 St. Louis neighborhoods and get called a Walker's Paradise -- I've done it repeatedly.

I can spend an hour just browsing Downtown St. Louis on Google Street View. It's fascinating. I use Live Maps and Google Earth also.

[JackieB23]

I grew up in St. Louis. I lived in North County, for a short time in Spanish Lake, and then lived for a year in Lasalle Park and then I moved to KC in my early 20's. In KC, I lived in Westport for four years, then moved north of the river to Parkville and other parts of the Northland (Clay and Platte counties).

Both cities have a lot to offer and each has its own unique flavor. The idea that one is "better" than the other is ridiculous. It's all about what you, personally, prefer. I would choose either city over most other places any day of the week.

St. Louis is a more eastern city - it wants to be Chicago and fails (whereas KC wants to be Denver or Dallas... and fails ). St. Louis metro is a much bigger, busier place, it moves faster and overall the culture is more formal and a little more class-conscious than KC is. It has a lot more to do for a visitor than KC has (too much to list here), and it has better Italian and Chinese food on the average than KC has. Its zoo is world class and the science center is just awesome. Lots to do, lots to see, lots to enjoy.

KC is a slower-paced, friendlier city (western/southern feel) that's spread out and has a lot of diversity in one city. I find it's a lot easier to meet people and become good friends in KC than it is in STL (but both are pretty good for that overall). KC has a much more diverse economy and when I've been in economic bad times in both cities, I think KC weathers it better. KC has less to do for a visitor than STL, but seems to be far more family-oriented than STL is (witness the articles on occasion about how hard it is for singles in KC, because it's so family oriented!). The zoo is frankly terrible (too much walking, not enough animals) and Union Station is not even close to living up to its potential. KC has the Renaissance Festival, whereas STL doesn't have anything quite like it. KC has far better BBQ and Mexican (all variants) than STL has - and Stroud's is the best fried chicken I've had commerically, ever, anywhere. KC doesn't have half the traffic problems STL does - people commuting from JoCo or from north of the River have never sat on the St. Charles Bridge in rush hour.

You can get anything from rural small-town living to highly urbanized living within commute distance to downtown in both metros relatively easily (although STL will take you longer than KC will). Cost of living in both cities is very good. Both have enjoyable sports traditions. Both have really great ethnic festivals and parades and such - I think that really makes a city livable, and both towns have some wonderful things going on around mostly Catholic feast days and whatnot. Both have ethnic neighborhoods and big-city amenities (shopping and such). Both have serious problems with crime (but typically doesn't affect the average person overmuch).

If I had to pick one, I'd pick KC, because I'm a family oriented person and I like the slower pace of things in the KC culture. However, St. Louis is a great metro too - there's no need to compete.

Besides - I think the KC-STL rivalry is just Springfield and Columbia teaming up, trying to play the two metros off each other.

[Brickmama]

Nice assessment JackieB. We respect your opinions.

[JackieB23]

Originally Posted by Brickmama

Nice assessment JackieB. We respect your opinions.

Thanks - I like both cities a lot (my heart is in KC, my family is in STL, but I live in Las Vegas now) and I think you pretty much can't go wrong in either city overall - there are great and horrible places in each.

[aragx6]

Great summary Jackie! The only thing I'll say is that St. Louis and KC have almost equal average commute times 20.7 minutes for KC and 21.5 minutes for St. Louis. (http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Produc...03/R04T160.htm)

If you're talking suburbs, I'm not sure data on that is as readily available, but I'd be really curious to see it if anyone can find it.

[JackieB23]

Originally Posted by aragx6

Great summary Jackie! The only thing I'll say is that St. Louis and KC have almost equal average commute times 20.7 minutes for KC and 21.5 minutes for St. Louis. (ACS: Ranking Table -- Average Travel Time to Work of Workers 16 Years and Over Who Did Not Work at Home (Minutes))

If you're talking suburbs, I'm not sure data on that is as readily available, but I'd be really curious to see it if anyone can find it.

Thanks!

TheCensus survey is average no matter where you are driving - I was talking downtowns just for comparison sake (had to work in both at one time or another). Of course, it all depends on where you live in the metro - commute time is probably shorter from places like Brentwood or Clayton vs. out in Wentzville or Collierville in STL.

In my experience traffic is much worse in STL and commute times tend to be longer. For example, I used to have a commute from my mom's house in Jeffco (admittedly far out) to work in North City and it took about an hour and a half (we hit bad traffic about halfway in and that's what really elongated the drive time). The only people in KC I knew who drove for that long to get to work lived up in St. Joseph or out in Lawrence!